2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02132.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-06-10 | 666.6 KB

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From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs negative?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 06:34:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Pacheco) writes:
>>   Is it me or are the majority of these UFO / "alien" experiences
>>negative in nature? Fear of being controlled by an unknown force
>>seems to be the dominant characteristic, followed by a fear of encountering
>>an unknown intelligence.  Cults have been springing up since the
>No, they are not negative. There are many positive aspects of abduction,
>but it is not easy to grasp from the popular media and books on the
>subject. For more of a benign viewpoint, Boyland, Sprinkle, Harder, and
>Lisa Royal (Visitors From Within) would be good people/books to investigate.
>The earth, humanity, and the greys, are all evolving... is the crux of
>thier theories.
>Jeff-

Jeff, I don't know where you're coming from, but you obviously don't know
the whole story.  The word 'abduction' alone implies that it isn't good:
you are being taken, not of your own will, and examined and perhaps
scarred or implanted.  From my own researches, I know that many, many of
the abductees are shattered by the experience.  How can you possibly
say that this is an 'evolved' act?  The greys are our _enemies_.  None of
the other non-terrestrial space goers do things like this, to my knowledge.
Now, I definitely don't know if they're cloning us, eating us, or just
plain experimenting on us (or all 3) but it all definitely isn't good.
And anyone who can say that aliens abducting us is good, for any reason,
no matter what they might say to the abductees, must seriously contemplate
'intergalactic ethics'.  There is nothing benign about the greys, IMHO.

                - Richard Temps
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From: [e-mail] (Ralph 'Hairy' Moonen)
Subject: Repo Man
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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 10:03:45 GMT
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Just saw this movie for about the third time. It's weird the amount
of new things I found in the movie. One of the things however that
really got me was a scene in which someone is talking in a phone booth
and the sound fades out. Now, this movie is about a car that has the
corpses of aliens in the trunk. Just at the fade out, you can hear the
person on the phone being asked "What's in the trunk" and then the
person replies "Some Roswell thing".

Apart from that, the movie is definately a classic. I just love the
weirdness in it. Bleeding Cornflake boxes, railway crossings without
any tracks etc.


--Ralph "Lets get some drinks" Moonen
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From: [e-mail] (glenn durden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: RADIO WAVES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 14:20:23 +1100
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 25

[e-mail] (John Walsh) writes:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> >>HELLO EARTHBEINGS.
> >> [stuff deleted]
> >>MY NAME IS BILLY I HEAR RADIO WAVES IN MY HEAD.
> >>
> >>MY FAVOURITE STATION IS ATLANTIC 252 AS I CAN GET A CRYSTAL CLEAR RECEPTION
>
> >Um... I don't know if this will scare you... but there is no ATLANTIC 252
> >listed in the station master directory I have by my terminal.  Nothing even

> Um... I don't know if this will scare you... but there IS an  ATLANTIC 252.

Um... I don't know if this will bore you... but the line "My name is Billy...
I hear radio waves in my head."   Is from a record by Roger Waters.
Radio Kaos.     Little digitised voice rings up a radio DJ and introduces
himself.     I suspect mcsdc1rs@dct has a copy of this.

.........................................................
glenn durden
[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.
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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Sweet 500 Watts free energy machine on tape?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: free energy
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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 13:46:56 GMT


-In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:

|> I just got the info, that there is a videotape available, which shows
|> the Bearden/Sweet free energy device producing 500 Watts of power to  a
|>  load without any moving parts..
|>
|>  Is this true ?
|>
|>  Where can I buy this tape ?
|>
|>  Has anybody seen yet this device working ?


    Send me $50 and I will send you a tape.

    Heavy sign!  As P.T. Barnum once said: "Theres a sucker boarn every                 minute."   How true.. How true...


    Steve  Food_for_the_Grays/Reptoids
-
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        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ufo: some points to c
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 11:35:07 GMT
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Rich Payne ([e-mail]) wrote:
> In article <1993Mar13.4962.14136@dosgate> "jonathan forbes" <[e-mail]> writes:
> >-> You forget the part about infinite energy.
> >
> >Well, that's only with conventional physics as we know it; who knows
> >what else might be possible.

> Then, I assume, you do not know.
>
> >-> >I hope I've made that clear, my English isn't too good.
> >->
> >-> Your english is fine, but is not English spoken in the UK?
> >
> >English is the language spoken in the U.K., U.S. and other countries.
> >"english" is a verb meaning "to translate into English".

> Opps, I thought I saw a .uk in yout address. Perhaps I was thinking of
> another post. Ontario, that is not the Canadian city which outlawed
> the use of the engligh language as I recall.

> BTW, I was not aware that "english" was a verb, or had a verb form. My
> dictionary lists the word as an adverb, not quite the same.

> >--
> >Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
> >416-629-7000/629-7044


> Rich

> [e-mail]

    OK, OK, OK, I know I said my English wasn't too good, that is true. And,
yes, I do live in England (have done for 14 years now) and I am indeed English.
It's just that I went to a rather crap secondary school with a crap English
teacher who hardly turned up. Because of this, my vocabulary and grammer isn't
too good, hence the phrase "my English isn't too good". Since I'm a programmer,
not a writer, this doesn't bother me that much. I'm just surprised that people
flamed me for saying so.

--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: Diamagnetism as a form of UFO propulsion
Message-ID: <stone.732204546@cwis>
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[e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:


>You might note that these craft are rather silent, for all their rapid
>maneuvers and such.  I can attribute this to the possibility that if the
>effects of the diamagnetic field are limited to the hull, perhaps a limited
>repulsive field would act out against everything outside the hull to a
>limited range.  I am sketchy on my information here, but I would think that
>it would create a vacuum outside the craft.  Plus, when the craft speeds throughthe air, this field would ionize air particles in front of it, creating a
>'halo' effect.  Note that a vacuum surrounding a ship would make it
>totally silent as it zips around places.


And what of the obigatory crash of thunder that would occur when the air
comes rushing back in to fill the vacancy left by the saucer?

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: We cannot give clone cells life, Sagan...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 10:18:29 -0400
References: <[e-mail]> <dt4.732066362@apricot>
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Lines: 20

In article <dt4.732066362@apricot>, [e-mail] (David E. Goggin) writes:
> [e-mail] (Heidi Vogel) writes:
>
>>    We are able to clone or make a cell, but we still are not
>>able to give it life.
>
> OK basic biology time!  What is 'life'?  When you clone a cell, you
> start it in an initial state, and from there, it runs by itself.  Now,
> since it is a cell, it has all the charatericsic of life, and thus
> can be said to be living.
>
> Even if this were not so, if the aliens can't get 'life' into their
> products, and thus need people to give them life, that doesn't say much
> for alien technology either.
>
> *dt*
>
Ever hear of taking a slip (from plants)??  That is cloning!  It's been
done for years!!!!!!  The world may end tommorow, better save some of your
personal cells!
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Carl Sagan's Article
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 14:46:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1ntsar$[e-mail]>
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In article <1ntsar$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

>|>   One interesting point he makes is that adbuction stories like
>|>   these go back centuries, but that the alleged adbuctors reflect
>|>   beliefs of the time.  Nowadays people think it's space aliens
>|>   and imagine them doing "scientific experiments" on them; before
>|>   it was demons and they were tortured their captives.
>|>
>|>   The bottom line remains the same: not a shed of actual evidence.
>
>Yeah, I guess you are right...Not a shred of evidence...
>
>Not to mention the thousands of people who say they have been abducted, and whos stories are so
>closely matched.  And that these people are from all over the world, not just
>from one town.

  There are MILLIONS of people who claim to have had personal contact
  with God such as messages or other guidance.    This doesn't provide
  evidence that this is true.  And in Catholic countries from France
  Italy, and Spain, to Mexico, the Phillipines, and even the US,
  there are sightings of the Virgin Mary, or other icons such as
  crucifixes which bleed, that all bear remarkable similarity to
  each other.   Is this evidence that Catholicism, or Christianity
  is true?

  Sorry, but verbal reports, even lots of them, are not very good
  evidence of anything, except maybe to motivate the need for better
  physical evidence.

>As WE, the general public, dont have sr-71 blackbirds to zoom around and see
>these things for ourselves, we have to make a decision as to what we believe
>when the Govt tells us that they dont exist.

  We DO have camcorders to record our neighbors or spouses being spirited
  away by aliens.

>Look at murder...you dont have to have produce a dead body in court to prove
>murder.  Just enough circumstantial...

  It's VERY hard to prove a murder without a body.  But if you could it
  would still require physical evidence of some kind, starting with
  evidence that the victim existed in the first place, and then physical
  evidence of foul play (e.g., blood stains).



---peter



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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mr J L Saunders) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>%I had a Jewish girlfriend who broke her ankle.  Has anyone else slept with
>%someone Jewish who broke a bone, or knows someone who has?

  I very frequently sleep with a Jewish woman who once broke her arm.
  Sometimes we even have sex.  My wife knows all about this and it
  doesn't bother her a bit!


---peter
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From: [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Long Island Crash
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 11:38:05 GMT
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    A while ago, a.a.v. published a MUFON-NET article about the Long Island
crash last November. At the end of the article it said that investigations were
still going on. Have there been any new developements in the case?
--
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     The Cursor, aka Nick Humphries, [e-mail], at your service.
  "People have started taking shotguns to UFO sightings. Kinda brings a whole
  new meaning to the phrase 'You ain't from 'round here, are ya?'"-Bill Hicks
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Any Las Vegas UFO activities Mar.27 to Apr.4?
Date: 15 Mar 1993 15:23:24 GMT
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
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An abductee friend of mine is going to be in Las Vegas from Mar.27
to Apr.4.  Does anyone know of any UFO type activities/meetings that
might be going on then?  If so, please email me.  I'd also appreciate
addresses / phone nos. of any Vegas area UFO organizations.

Thanks, David
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Them bogus homo sapiens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Mar 93 22:32:35 -1000
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI
Lines: 39

  What follows is a partially decrypted message picked up
in Arecibo, Puerto Rico my heart's devotion, let it ...

   On March 6, 1993 at 0543 Zulu time, or Greenwich Mean Time
in the meantime nearly springtime.. stop that you idiot...
a radio transmission was received on the alpha hydrogen frequency,
which is a pile of Megahertz and used like 157.1 for aliens and such.
This transmission was given to the NSA cryptographers to chew on.

Some words about their cryptic work have leaked out already. The
transmission was from within our own galaxy and was not a re-run
of the Honeymooners as was originally conjectured, nor was it
spuriously concocted curiouser curios curiosae as the unlearned
belched forth.

  SOme of the decrypted text runs rune like this:

.....garden more or less trashed by a single bogus bipedal
species that has developed beta-longo mentation in a mutated,
inharmonious form, after 2000 million years of biosphere
maintenance and evolution.........spores need to be sent
to eliminate the bogus species.....however certain members
of the sacred hobnail tadpole commission have asked for
permission to study the mechanisms by which the bogus
species have acted to trash the biosphere.... in order to
produce an interesting report to his Salientness, the
Giant and All Pervading Etherbuttress.........
........it was further determined that Ja'alt-portly, the
errant SUb-Genius...arranged for the self-reflective
capacities of the bogus species himself... merely as an
entertainment for his daughter....and for this he is
to be punished on the planet Purgatory......&&&&& statuic
.......static dynamic static........nurbulta nurbulations...


........aloha net people



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From: [e-mail] (Shay Barsabe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gas
Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:07:58 GMT
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UFOs and their occupants: Methane gas or Tibetans or both,
everything else is the government.

-- Honey Hair in the Pits
QUIT
the Pits
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From: robert-w@aci_1.aci.ns.ca (ROBERT WALLACE)
Subject: Would Like An Address
Message-ID: <robert-w.3@aci_1.aci.ns.ca>
Keywords: Address
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Does anyone know the address of Carl Sagan, or the place where he can be
reached. The reason for this request is I am doing a research project.
Thank you Robert-W
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: UFOs negative?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:

>Jeff, I don't know where you're coming from, but you obviously don't know
>the whole story.  The word 'abduction' alone implies that it isn't good:
>you are being taken, not of your own will, and examined and perhaps
>scarred or implanted.  From my own researches, I know that many, many of
>the abductees are shattered by the experience.  How can you possibly
>say that this is an 'evolved' act?  The greys are our _enemies_.  None of
>the other non-terrestrial space goers do things like this, to my knowledge.
>Now, I definitely don't know if they're cloning us, eating us, or just
>plain experimenting on us (or all 3) but it all definitely isn't good.
>And anyone who can say that aliens abducting us is good, for any reason,
>no matter what they might say to the abductees, must seriously contemplate
>'intergalactic ethics'.  There is nothing benign about the greys, IMHO.

Like I said, read the sources I refered to. It's obvious you have not.
How can I debate someone so uninformed and closeminded?

Jeff-



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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Chung)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: Re: [movie/television(TV)]  Fire In The Sky. -- and "Sightings"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 16:29:02 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Electronics For Imaging, Inc.
Lines: 34


     C^u ekzistas retanoj en Mehiko?

     In response to a Dan Pacheco's posting about Oliver Stone, this movie
is not by Oliver Stone, right?  However, "JFK" is based on the book, and
a lot of people think that it is true.  I have "On the Trail of the
Assassins" but have not read it yet.  Now, I want to get the book, on
which "Fire in the Sky" is based, to read how much about the U.F.O.
experience itself is true.

     On U.F.O., some people do not believe "Sightings" at all.  But how
the Mexican U.F.O. sightings?  A posting by Don Allen on "Sci.Skeptic"
talked about it too.

     Tial, mi demandas el homoj en Mehiko mem.  C^u ekzistas iaj retanoj,
kiuj log^as en Mehiko, plej bone Mehiko-Urbo?  Au' c^u ekzistas iaj
retanoj, kiuj havas familianoj en Mehiko?  Mi volas demandi el ili.
C^u vere estas, ke multaj vidis "senidentaj flugaj^oj" dum tiu suna
eklipso?  C^u en "Sesdek Minutoj" (en Mehiko), oni diskutas pri tiu
fenomeno?  C^u "senidentaj flugaj^oj" vere akceptig^as de la landanaro
de Mehiko?  C^u vere estas, ke la registaro de Usono, s^tops informo-fluo
al Usono?  Grave, c^u la registaro de Usono jam havas rilatojn kun
exterteranoj?

     I listened to a talk by the Society on Social Implications of
Technology about the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence.  The
speaker is from NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Association?),
and of course, he (a man, so "he") says indirectly that the government
does not already have contact with extraterrestrials.  In my opinion,
if the government already does, the the S.E.T.I. project is a waste of
money.

                    Daniel Chung (Mr.)
                    (Esp-e: G^ONGO C^i-jau'o)
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From: [e-mail] (John E. Ivory)
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Subject: Test
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Please ignore
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
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Note: Followups set to alt.config.


Here is an article from alt.config posted by Michael Corbin of Paranet. He is
trying to set up some news groups that readers of alt.alien.visitors should be
very interested in. For those of you who can't seem to tollerate John
Winston, this alternative could be for you...


---------------------- begin included article -------------------------------
Article: 14116 of alt.config
Newsgroups: alt.config
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Creation of alt groups ParaNet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news)
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Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
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This  [sic]  is an amended request for discussion to start a  series  of
alt conferences.

The   following  conferences  are  desired,  together   with   an
explanation of each:

alt.paranet.ufo
     This  is ParaNet's international UFO conference.   All  UFO-
related subjects will be discussed within this conference.   This
area is currently carried over ParaNet's own network and will  be
gated  into  the alt group.  All traffic originating in  the  alt
group  will be gated into the ParaNet network.   This  conference
combines  active discussion on the phenomenon as well as  posting
of  text-based  files or information as it becomes  available  to
ParaNet.  Additionally, many recognized research groups use  this
conference  for discussion.  These groups are located all  around
the world.

alt.paranet.paranormal
     This is ParaNet's general paranormal discussion group.   All
aspects  of  the  paranormal are  discussed  within  this  group.
Again,  this conference is already in place within ParaNet's  own
network.

alt.paranet.abduct
     This  conference concerns the alleged  world-wide  abduction
phenomenon.   It  is moderated by Dr. David Jacobs,  a  respected
author  of  two  UFO-related  books,  "The  UFO  Controversy   in
America,"  and  recently,  "Secret Life," a  book  detailing  the
abduction  phenomenon.  Jacobs is a history professor  at  Temple
University  with  a considerable background in the  UFO  research
community.   This  conference  is a  ParaNet  conference  and  is
frequented  by  other international researchers of  note,  namely
Keith  Basterfield  of  Australia,  who  published  a  paper   in
psychological  journals concerning Fantasy Prone Personality  and
the   Abduction   Scenario.   The  discussion   is   intelligent,
informative and active.

alt.paranet.askufo
     This  conference  is a direct link between ParaNet  and  the
publishers of UFO Magazine in California.  It is moderated by Don
Ecker, Research Director for the magazine.

alt.paranet.skeptic
     This conference is moderated by Anson Kennedy of the Georgia
Skeptics Association.  It is primarily for the discussion of  the
UFO  phenomenon  and how a skeptic views it.  The  discussion  is
open-minded  and  challenges  those who tend  to  accept  the  ET
hypothesis  out-of-hand  without  basis or  evidence.   Rules  of
evidence  are  also  discussed and how the  UFO  community  could
interface with the scientific community to instrument or  measure
the phenomenon.

alt.paranet.science
     The  title of this conference is "Science on the Edge."   As
it's  title implies, this conference deals with hard science  and
physics   and  the  relationship  that  this  may  have   to   an
understanding  of the UFO phenomenon.  It is moderated  by  Clark
Matthews,  who  has a background in science and  regularly  posts
articles on quantum physics and other science-related topics.

All  of  these conferences are unique to ParaNet in  quality  and
composition and are very different from what is currently offered
in the alt groups with similar titles.

Below  is  further  information  about  myself  and  ParaNet  for
information  purposes.   It  is  our  desire  to  provide   these
conferences  as an educational tool demonstrating what is  really
known  (or  not  known) about  the  UFO  phenomenon.   Currently,
ParaNet  maintains  a  large listserver  with  approximately  250
names.  This has become unmanageable and further demonstrates the
need for creation of these various alt groups.

                 BIOGRAPHY FOR MICHAEL F. CORBIN

     Michael  Corbin  is  36 years old  and  resides  in  Denver,
Colorado.  Born and raised in the Denver metro area, Michael  has
had  a very diverse background.  With an  accounting  background,
Michael  operated  a real estate brokerage firm  specializing  in
commercial property management for five years before assuming the
helm of ParaNet Information Service as its owner and director.
     Since 1988, Michael has built the organization into a multi-
national  communications network specializing in distribution  of
news  relating to the paranormal and UFOs.  The scope of  ParaNet
has   increased  tremendously  to  the  point  of  providing   an
international  forum  and communications link with  many  of  the
international   researchers  and  investigators,  many  of   them
luminaries  in  their  field.   ParaNet  has  grown  in  size  to
appreciable portion and now provides an international gateway via
Internet,  a global communications network owned and operated  by
the National Science Foundation.  This link has provided a  real-
time  point  of presence in the world allowing  the  movement  of
time-sensitive information to virtually any ParaNet affiliate  in
the world.
     Among  some  of  ParaNet's  accomplishments  have  been  the
creation  of  a moderated conference dealing with  the  abduction
phenomenon,  hosted by author David Jacobs.  A direct  link  with
UFO  Magazine and editors Vicki Cooper and Shari Stark  has  been
established providing access by the public.
     Michael has appeared on various television programs, several
radio  talk shows, both local and national, and has  appeared  in
various magazines.  In addition, Michael has written articles for
publication.
     Michael   has   recently   started   MICAP   (Multi-national
Investigations Cooperative on Aerial Phenomena), an international
research  organization  which  has  begun  many  "leading   edge"
projects  interfacing the UFO research community with  mainstream
scientific researchers to bring about a focused, global  research
effort  to better understand the complexity that  the  phenomenon
presents.
About ParaNet...

PARANET:  FIVE YEARS AND COUNTING
by Jim Speiser, Director of ParaNet 1986-88

It may be a bit late to celebrate an anniversary that occurred on
New Year's Day, but the premiere issue of CONTINUUM provides an
opportune moment to recognize that ParaNet is now over five years
old.  The chance to write about those first five years brings with
it the temptation to spout off about ParaNet's lofty goals, to
boast of its various accomplishments, and to reflect on those
triumphs not yet realized.  Not being one to resist temptation ...

On January 1, 1986, a bulletin-board system (BBS) called "The
Other Side" opened its doors to enquiring minds, featuring a type
of information which had, at that time, never been gathered
together for electronic mass consumption.  The modem world had not
yet emerged from its MacLuhanesque infancy; very few BBSs of the
time had ventured beyond the "games-and-utilities-for-download"
stage.  The idea behind ParaNet was revolutionary, and yet long
overdue; it was to be a BBS network:

  - which accomplished more than merely supporting the habits of
computer addicts;

  - which not only _informed_, but _inquired_;

  - which covered a topic that desperately cried out for studious
inquiry and wide-ranging dissemination:  the paranormal.

Thus was born ParaNet's first motto, which was also the embodiment
of its basic goals:  "Answering Questions, Questioning Answers".

>From the beginning it was intended that ParaNet link together the
three factions of paranormal debate:  the skeptics, the believers,
and (most important of all) the undecided, which I believe
includes the vast majority of Americans.  As ParaNet's first
Director, I wanted it to be a place where those of us who had
taken a firm position on the fence would feel comfortable, and
would be able to benefit from public discussion of paranormal
issues by the other two factions.

And so, from the start, I actively encouraged participation by
skeptics and the unconvinced, as well as believers.  I think it
was this promotion of ParaNet as neutral ground, tempered by our
common-sense approach, that has contributed most to its reputation
as a credible network.  This tradition has continued under the
directorship of Michael Corbin, to whom I turned over the reins in
1988 due to equipment problems and time constraints.  Mike has
actively sought and gained the participation of the Bay Area
Skeptics (via the Skeptic's Board), the South Shore Skeptics (via
Cleveland FreeNet), and other skeptics' groups.

Another goal which I saw as vital to ParaNet's success was to
bring as many recognized investigators, authors, and researchers
on-line as possible.  This was no small task, as most of the
world's paranormal researchers had never heard of a modem at the
time, let alone bought one or learned how to use it.
Nevertheless, over the years ParaNet's bandwidth has been honored
by communications from Marge Christenson, T. Scott Crain, Dan
Drasin, Stan Gordon, Barry Greenwood, Budd Hopkins, Linda Howe,
Phil Imbrogno, Dr. David Jacobs, Dr. Donald Johnson, Philip Klass,
Bruce Maccabee, Maj. James McGaha, Dr. Mark Rodeghier, Robert
Schaeffer, Tracy Torme, and Dr. David Webb--not to mention our own
Don Ecker, who brings with him Vicki Cooper and our interface to
the premiere trade publication, UFO Magazine.

I believe that both we and they have benefited from ParaNet's
existence.  No researcher can operate in a void.  The
investigator's raw material, in the form of sighting reports,
comes from data supplied by "regular people", and there is
probably no better way to stay in touch with regular people and
keep one's fingers on the pulse of UFO activity than through a
computer network.  The network concept provides the investigator
with immediacy, one-on-one contact, and instant access to a global
communications medium.  Best of all, the same advantages apply to
the rank-and-file user, placing him on a communicative par with
the big-name researcher--something not possible with conventional
media such as journals and newsletters.  It is hoped that these
advantages will have a "snowball" effect, attracting more
researchers, who will attract more users, who will provide more
raw information, which will attract more researchers, and so on--
until eventually ParaNet becomes the "network of record" for the
anomalistics field.

Of course, the "network advantage" was also bound to attract
people of a more disruptive nature, and as a result ParaNet's
bandwidth has also been graced by the presence of provocateurs and
troublemakers.  But ultimately the network's collective wisdom
prevailed over the disrupters, simply by allowing them to hang
themselves with their own words in a public forum.  ParaNet
survived the incursion, and may even be healthier for it.

Another accomplishment that ParaNet can be proud of is its timely
reporting of major, fast-breaking stories, often beating
mainstream and even trade media to the punch.  The first of these
was the unfortunate death of J. Allen Hynek, the founder of the
Center for UFO Studies.  By happenstance, I found out about it
from a secondary source, confirmed it, and ran his obituary on
ParaNet a full day before it hit the press wires.  While bearing
bad tidings is nothing to brag about, it did prove the viability
of the computer network as a news medium.

Then, in January of 1987, I got wind of what was being termed a
"major breakthrough" in the Cosmic Watergate.  Piecing together
conversations with Bill Moore, Bruce Maccabee, and Barry
Greenwood, I put out the word over ParaNet that the upcoming
"breakthrough" probably involved something called "MJ-12".  Sure
enough, in March of that year Moore released the first "sanitized"
version of the Majestic 12 documents--and ParaNet was the first
mass medium to publish them.  It would be a full two months before
most other people in the UFO community would even hear of MJ-12.
Thankfully, it wasn't more than a few months later that we
published a series of strong caveats about the veracity of the
documents, and we _never_ took a position endorsing their
validity.

Other notches on ParaNet's gun include the JAL 747 "Encounter over
Alaska" (thanks to a contact in Japan), the first reporting of the
results of the testing on the Shroud of Turin (thanks to a slip by
one of the researchers involved in the test), and the identity of
Gulf Breeze's "Believer Bill" (thanks to the detective work of
Mike Corbin).  More such scoops are in the offing, and may be
breaking on-line by the time you read this.

One of our proudest accomplishments is our reach into foreign
lands.  Thanks to the tremendous growth initiated by Mike Corbin,
ParaNet can now be accessed in six countries on three continents.
And it is entirely possible that by the time this magazine goes to
press, there will be a ParaNet node up and running in St.
Petersburg, Russia.  I think we can all agree that ParaNet is much
more useful because it reflects the global nature of UFOs and
anomalistics.

Which brings me to the part where I fret about those goals we have
yet to accomplish.  Briefly, over the next five years I would
personally like to see ParaNet:

  - establish a major presence in more countries, especially
Japan, Belgium, Brazil, Peru, and South Africa;

  - establish a vigorous investigative arm, with "ready teams" in
place to track down sightings and other claims;

  - promulgate investigative standards that are palatable to all
sides, so that the results of our investigations are viewed with
respect;

  - establish a press liaison office, and perhaps even a wire
service, so that the mainstream press need not fish around in the
dark for the definitive word on a paranormal story;

  - establish a Congressional liaison office, or perhaps just a
regular publication to quietly and reliably keep Congress informed
on the major issues;

  - begin to delve more deeply into other anomalies, including
crop circles, surface features on Mars, Bigfoot, ghosts, and other
mysteries.  We need not take a position one way or the other; I'd
simply like to see us carry more information on these topics.
[Editor's note:  Consider it done, Jim.  See the article on the
Blue Grass, Iowa, crop circle in this issue!]

Overall, and most important, I'd like to see ParaNet establish
itself as the "network of record" for the field of anomalistics.
I believe we have truly come a long way toward accomplishing that
goal, and it would be a shame to come up short now.  For once
that's accomplished, we will be one step closer to achieving that
ultimate, most elusive of goals:  Finding the Answers.

For that, of course, ParaNet will need the cooperation of as many
of you as possible.  In the end, the network is only as good as
the people who use it.  We thank all of you for contributing to
the growth of ParaNet over the past five years; and we hope you
will continue to use the network and benefit from it, so that we
can maintain our stature as "the world's most important computer
network."

Additionally,  we  have  been in contact with  various  sites  in
Australia who are interested in carrying the alt groups when they
are created.

Please let me know what the next step is in the creation of these
groups.

I can be contacted at [e-mail]

Michael Corbin
Director
ParaNet Information Services
---------------------- end included article -------------------------------




--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!00vmszopa
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <1993Mar15.115652.16525@bsu-ucs>
Date: 15 Mar 93 16:56:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's
Lines: 60

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Concerning Carl Sagan's article, he is indeed out of his field
> and out of his depth. Compare what he wrote (apparently without
> doing even the most cursory research) with an article that
> appeared in "The Atlantic Monthly" in August 1991. It was
> written by Dr. J.S. Gordon, who TEACHES PSYCHIATRY at Georgetown
> University. Title of the article: "The UFO Experience."
>
> Dr. Gordon writes, in part, " Three medical colleagues made me realize
[some deleted]
> herself had been abducted. These physicians appeared perfectly
> normal, and all of them were convinced of the reality of a
> phenomenon that I regarded as evidence of psychopathology... I wasn't
> in a position to decide whether extraterrestrials exist...But
> clearly *something* had happened to these people, something
> powerful, strange, and transformative."...

Which Sagan did not deny.  In fact, he declared investigation of these very
real effects on people to be important.

>
> Dr. Gordon began interviewing people who claimed to have had
> abductions by aliens, and his opinion was:
>
> "...it seems fair to say that the vast majority of these people
> just aren't crazy. However incredible their UFO experience seems,
> and whatever it might actually be, it is not in any obvious way the
> produce of serious psychopathology...These UFO experiencers do
> not have the obvious thought disorder -- the loose associations
> and blocked mental functioning -- of the schizophrenic. Aside from
> their UFO experiences...they don't have ideas that could be
> called particularly odd or paranoid...Nor do most of these people
> appear particularly "fantasy prone," as some have suggested UFO
> experiencers would be. "

Yet Sagan doesn't think they're "just crazy" either, at least based on this
article.  He is basically applying Occam's Razor: in the face of a necessarily
complex system of belief to explain the abduction experience, accept the
simpler proposition:  people hallucinate, and extremely vivid hallucinations
seem to end up reflecting (in Sagan's words) the "zeitgeist" of the culture.

This is a much more acceptable proposition considering the lack of evidence, and
I believe you are not giving the article the credit deserves.  You've put
words into his mouth equating "the phenomenon described by abductees is real
in a cultural and psychological way, but not in describing what really
happened to them" with "they're crazy."  I've read widely in the UFO and
abductee literature, and his comments struck me as sensible and sympathetic.

>
> The contrast between Dr. Gordon's report and Sagan's --- whatever
> it is, personal bias, disinformation, anything but 'science' -- is
> quite striking.
>
> Lou
--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[e-mail]                            Vinney Szopa
Ball State University        Muncie, IN            USA
"It's hard being a man, living in a garbage pail." -Lou Reed
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (The President ONLY knows what they tell him!)
Subject: RE: Fire in the sky
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. (VMS Software Support - Colorado)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 19:31:15 GMT


--
I saw the movie "Fire in the Sky" over the weekend. After seeing the movie
and reading some previous posts I have some questions. Actually it boils
down to 1 major question - What is true in the movie according to the Walton
testimony and what is Hollywood hype?

I do now want to spoil the movie for anyone so I can't go into great detail
about specifics here. The basic thing at the heart of my question is this:
In the movie Walton is subject to some pretty wicked LIVE (no sleep or
anesteisia) physical examination by his captors. Yet some previous articles
on the net describe things differently according to Walton's testimony.

So what gives? Is the movie full of hype or is it accurate? (I know I know,
what some of you are going to say - GET A LIFE AND BUY THE BOOK. Well I'm
just looking for a quick answer here. I may read the book later when I have
time).

Thanks,

Marty

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 [e-mail]|"Could you please continue the petty bickering?
        Marty Henderson        |   I find it most intriguing."   ---    Data,
    Woodland Park, Colorado    |    Star Trek, The Next Generation, "Haven"
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!ee.rochester.edu!moscom!mz
From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 18:09:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
Lines: 64
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

: >witnessed "craft that fly at incredibly high speeds." Finally, a
: >high-ranking European public-health official explained...that she
: >herself had been abducted. These physicians appeared perfectly
: >normal, and all of them were convinced of the reality of a
: >phenomenon that I regarded as evidence of psychopathology... I wasn't
: >in a position to decide whether extraterrestrials exist...But
: >clearly *something* had happened to these people, something
: >powerful, strange, and transformative."...


:   So what?  There are psychiatrists today who still believe
:   in the old Freudian ideas of "id"'s "superego"'s, etc.  Just
:   because a psychiatrist believes something doesn't, by itself,
:   mean the thing is real.

:   The bottom line remains the same:  There is no evidence of
:   actual abductions.  These days everyone and his brother has
:   a camcorder but no neighbors or other members of the household
:   have videotaped aliens carrying the "adbuctee" away, or space-
:   craft landed in the backyard.   And despite numerous reports by
:   abductees that they have had artifacts left inside their bodies
:   by aliens, these have never been shown to exist despite persistent
:   rumors on this newsgroup that someone (unspecified) somehwere
:   (unspecified) is actually in possession of such artifacts.

:   The bottom line remains that whatever the phenomenon is that's
:   going on here there is no evidence that it's not strictly
:   inside the head of the alleged "abductee".


: ---peter
Actually, if you have been watching the FOX tv program Sightings, you would
have noted that one of those persons who had an artifact left in his body
had it removed.  Not to say, of course, that he wasn't faking it.

But put yourself in their place, the aliens, if they exist, that is.  You land
of a fairly advanced planet that has just developed a nuclear technology.  You
prefer not to have these natives launching these new weapons at you and
endangering you as well as themselves.  So, using your advanced technology,
you keep yourselves hidden, at least to the point that the planet you are
visiting has to keep on guessing as to your existance.  Also, you figure
that your own planet once had similar experiences, and when "they" finally
did introduce themselves to you, after your planet gained enough responsibility
to keep from destroying itself and not blasting everything out of the sky
because you did not understand it and thought it was a threat, some young child
asked the new "visitors" why they acted that way.  They simply responded "so
we would not cause mass panic."

Face it:  Even if aliens do exist, personally I believe the universe is far
too big for our speck of dust to have the only life, they are not going to
land and say "What's happenin bro!"  because there are millions of people on
this planet who would freak out, especially those who are waiting for the
second coming of Christ.

Matthew

[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: UFO: Some points to consider
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunhc
Organization: Carl Pellonpaa Fan Club - South Chapter
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 14:48:32 GMT
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (N.M. Humphries) writes:

>> Well, ya can't get to the speed of light without infinite energy.
>        ^^
>... we can assume that some alien civilisations have found out a way to
>reach the speed of light without using infinite energy resources.
>...

How about F = ma?  In the relativistic case the mass becomes the rest
mass times gamma and gamma goes to infinity as velocity goes to c.
Therefore you need an infinite force.  Physics 101.  Try multigeneration
ships or very long life spans.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: How do we know who tells the truth here???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunhc
Organization: Carl Pellonpaa Fan Club - South Chapter
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 15:00:49 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Guillot, Burt J.) writes:

>I've been trying to pay attention to what's going on here, but it is
>too hard to tell the difference between people posting serious
>articles and not-so-serious people.

There is no "truth" here.  You have UFO atheists (extreme skeptics),
UFO agnostics (self explanatory), and UFO believers (anything anyone
writes or says must be true).  It's like arguing the existence of God
in soc.religion.christian.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Pakarinen)
Subject: The Truth is Finally Revealed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Anon Administrator)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: alt.alien.visitors
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 17:12:17 GMT
Lines: 7


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From: [e-mail] (The Watcher)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ALIENS
Date: 15 Mar 1993 19:55:56 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 12
Sender: [e-mail] (Alan Storm)
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: centauri.unm.edu

I have noticed that a great many of you people would like to meet these little
gray aliens.  Bad move.  These little fuckers are ruthless and the closest
things to devils made with flesh.  They don't know love or compassion; they
think of you as animals, not equals.  The only emotion these fuckers feel is
fear and I intend on making them afraid every chance I get.  You can hang out
with them if you want, but don't try to reason with them.  You can't reason
with creatures that think you're an animal.  Me I plan on killing them at my
every opertunity.  If I can I will Murder them as a race.



                            The Watcher.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: How do we know who tells the truth here???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 18:53:47 GMT
Lines: 28

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Jeff):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Ivory) writes:
>>I never had a need for 'KILL' files until living through the idiots and
>>childish teasing that goes on in this group.  I found that adding the lines
>>at the bottom of this message to my 'KILL' file made the signal to noise
>>ratio improve a dozen fold.
>>
>>Is there something out there?  I don't know.  But I'm willing to give the
>>possibility some serious discussion and investigation.  This group has some
>>mature interactions and exchanges on occasion, but I'd strongly suggest that
>>you completely ignore the two dips below, as well as anybody who'd give
>>either of them the time of day.
>>
>>/Winston/a:j
>>/blondie/a:j
>
> Yeah, like your message is real valuable to our edification here.
> Post where somebody cares.
>
> Jeff-
>

  Well, I for one care, and I'm reading this group, so he has posted it
  where it belongs!  I have those two in my KILL file as well, but I still
  read one every now and again for a laugh...

  Max Elliott   [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Craig Becker)
Subject: Re: Spark Plug Found in 500,000 Year Old Rock
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (News id)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 20:53:28 GMT
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[e-mail] (Brian Wood) writes:
...
> At the time this was found, no one had heard of room temperature super-
> conductors.  My speculation, again assuming it is real, is that the
> ceramic material is a superconductor when cooled sufficiently.  The
> embedded magnetic rod with the coil at the end could then, perhaps, be
> an antenna that would radiate whatever is induced in it.  I think a
> good guess would be that the thing is either an anti-gravity generator
> or an antenna.  I am currently running some experiments with superconductors
> to see if I can induce any weird effects.  I'm an engineer, and I know
> something about this stuff, but I'll admit that it's just wild guesswork
> right now.  But hey, that's how Edison started too.

Sheesh! Given that the thing actually exists, why must it be
assumed to be some kind of super-science gizmo? It might be a
child's toy, or part no. 43892/3849 (widget valve connector
grommet) that fell off some bigger machine.

I can just imagine a race of intelligent ferrets, 6 million
years from now, finding the perfectly preserved hubcap off a
'57 Chevy and thinking it must be a FTL communicator or the
like...

Craig

Not the opinion of my employer.
--
-- "You will have the tallest,    Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  darkest leading man in               Internet: [e-mail] --
--  Hollywood."                     IBM TR: [e-mail] --
--   - Merian C. Cooper to Fay Wray               VNET: JLPICARD at AUSVM1 --
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From: [e-mail] (Kurt Slama)
Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Syndrome
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
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That, and there is a drug that the brain secretes during periods of
sleep that effects paralysis of the body, the function of which is
to keep you from thrashing about in your sleep and making noises.
This is possibly from a time where moving around and making noises
might attract attention to our sleeping ancestors, thus making them
vulnerable to predatory attack when they are least aware of it coming.
   Several times, I have awaken in a half-conscious state and found
myself paralyzed. It isn't really scary to me, like there is an imminent
attack by some monster and I must get away, but scary like an animal
being scared to death for the simple fact that it can't move or get away.
Most commonly I have an urge to get up like I'm doing a situp. I simply
cannot move *anything*.it's like being dead but still alive. This doesn't
happen very often, but it's quite an experience. I know I am not imagining
things, because every time I wake up in that state and slowly but gradually
become more conscios and the paralysis goes away gradually. I'm trying
as hard as I can to escape, and then I just budge a finger. I barely
manage to move my lip. I open an eye. I move several fingers at a time.
My hand breaks loose of the paralysis. Then my arm. Then I sit up in bed,
shaking off the effects of the drug, which at that point make me feel no
worse than any other time I have waken up. Then it's gone, and I can't
tell that it ever happened, except for the psychological dread of the
waking nightmare of just a few seconds ago.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14413 alt.alien.visitors:14432 sci.skeptic:40723
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Fire In The Sky.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 21:21:06 GMT
Lines: 28

[e-mail] writes:
: 1>+P$'''''
:
:  is hitting the big screen in a blockbuster moviPwP
:
: B+xxxxxxWxxkxC
: xxxW    xa    xKxFx=xn
: xS
: x
: xb
: x<b
: `x~xx~x8xcxx*x,x.x0x2x4
: x6x8x:x<x>x@xBx<BDxFxHxJx
: LxNxPxRx,x.x0x2x4x6x8x:x<
: x>x@xBx
: 0Roman 10cpiork.
:   "It was more than coincidence," says Tracy Torne, the film's screenwriter
: and co-producer.
:   "I loo

John, try to remember not to pick up the phone while using your modem.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Tex SEX!  The HOME of
Rosemount Inc.                                |WHEELS!  The dripping of
                                              |COFFEE!!  Take me to
[e-mail]                 |Minnesota but don't EMBARRASS
                                              |me!!
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: My little contribution to this place... a little bit more organized this time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Date: 15 MAR 93 16:54:47
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes...
>Diamagnetism:  A New Field

There's a few problems with this. Such a force would not overcome inertia. The
non-inertial motions typically described cannot be due to any sort of drive
force in the way that we understand them.

Such a drive would have to have something to repel. Again, as I mentioned about
someone else's repulsive force drive, it wouldn't work out in deep space.

By the way, there's probably no reason to believe that a flow of "positively
charged particles" would do any more than reverse the polarity of the normal
magnetic field - the magnet's north pole becomes south and vice versa.

>'halo' effect.  Note that a vacuum surrounding a ship would make it
>totally silent as it zips around places.

No way. All it would do is move the shock wave farther out away from the craft.
You can't blast air away from a vehicle at supersonic speeds silently. I've
seen this "creates a vacuum" explaination for the silence at least twice, but
it can't work like that.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Answers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 07:12:14 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Goodmorning World I Love You. I love Kibo, Rich, Dan, Aaron, Don,
Carl, Jaguar and Robert. I love everybody. We are all on this space
ship called Earth in a sealed atmosphere so we are going to have to
breath our own breath. Thoughts are things and they come back to you.
Neagative thoughts affect us in a negative way. I would suggest that
we send out positive thoughts so we would get positive results and get
over some of our problems. You people in yours discussions of the
enviorment are getting down to what we must do to make the World a
better place.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 07:28:41 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Posters: I believe you will find that the person calling himself
Brownie has, in posting a Blond Joke, set off an explosion of which
the World may never recover. Blondie when you get her started can
tell more funny Blond Jokes than any other person in the galaxy and
when she gets through with them she starts on Man Jokes.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 07:35:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: I hereby state that I'm not going to or having any meetings
and don't send any money to anybody. Do I make myself clear. Well I
never.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Are Dolphins Space People?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 08:10:41 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 38

Subject: Dolphins.
  There is a lady out there who knows Kumar who wants to get pregnant so I
hope you get to read the following information;...A pack of dolphin doctors
are making sterile women pregnant at an oceanside clinic where fertility
experts say the process offers fantistic hope for many other anxious
females.
  The gentle giants of the sea simply offer companionship for couples unable
to conceive a child. But that frolicking friendship is working magic for the
desperate parents.
  "This technique has been proved, although not yet on a massive scale," says
Dr. Gowri Motha, a practitoner of alternative medicine.  "People often come
to see me as a last resort after trying everything else because they have
nothing to lose."
  The London-based doctor pioneered the dolpin treatment in England before
bringing it to the United States.  Dr. Motha has found that many unexplained
infertilities are caused by depression - an affliction that can be easily
cured through dips with the delightful dolphins.
  Things are going swimmingly at the Marine Research and Development Center in
Florida where Dr. Betsy Smith has spent 20 years studying the healing
properties of dolphins.
  Dr. Smith and other experts had already discovered the cute creatures work
miracles with handicapped children.  The kids make great strides after
spending water time in the company of the affectionate dolphins.  Further
studies revealed the remarkable healing powers extended to women unable to
conceive a much-wanted child.
  The dolphins work remarkably well in cases where there is no physical reason
for the female's infertility.
  Clients undergo a total treatment aimed at washing away their dark
depression.  They will follow their ocean swims with massage therapy and
other relaxation techniques.
  "I'm not making any claims that this can cure infertility," says Dr. Motha,
who nevertheless has overseen the Britain-to-America trip of 10 couples
seeking out the dolphin therapy to remedy their childlessness.
JW So there you have it folks. Some people even say that Dolphins are space
people come here to live but you would never believe me if I said that. Come
to think of it I'm not for sure of it myself.
Source of Material: 4-Sun-March 2, 1993.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Anthony S. Pelliccio)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Cow Mutilations Across the U.S.A.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 15:26:03 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1ntob1$[e-mail]>
Organization: Antone's Italian Kitchen and Excellence in Operating Network
X-Newsreader: rusnews v1.00
Lines: 51

[e-mail] (Richard Wilbur) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Max Elliot) w
> rites:
> |>   <lots o' stuff about bloodless excision etc.>
> |>
> |>   It's easy to produce bloodless incisions in a test subject. You
> |>   must first drain all the blood from the subject.  simple, huh?
> |>   And, this may be done very cleanly, almost painlessly and with
> |>   absolutely NO mess whatsoever, using simple medical equipment
> |>   available at a pharmacy.  Who might do this you ask?  Well, cults
> |>   are very likely. Think about it. Remove the blood. Drink it and use
> |>   it in rituals, along with a few assorted other parts. Not very
> |>   complicated, easily possible, and even likely.
> |>
> |>   Max Elliott  [e-mail]
>
>
>
> Wake up pal, and smell the coffee...
>
> Do some reading to see the magnitude and scope of the mutilations.

From what I've heard, the incisions on the cows were very smooth. We
don't currently have such an instrument (although it is quite possible)
that cuts at the atomic level.

Another thing we were talking about is that if an alien race is visiting
earth, why don't they just take it over? The reason this topic came
about was due to a discussion about the advanced technology required to
traverse large distances in space and time. Some of my friends think
that if they have the technology to do so, they also have far superior
weaponry. I brought up the fact that it wasn't necessarily so. Look at
the United States, or the world. In the last 100 years auto technology
has changes, but not as dramatically as computer and weapons
technologies have. I wonder, if we weren't so stupid and didn't need a
military, how advanced transportation and medicine would be?

Just a thought.

Tony

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Anthony S. Pelliccio, n1mpq/aa    // A man who feels sees life as //
-- system @ garlic.sbs.com          // a tragedy, a man who thinks  //
-----------------------------------// sees life as a comedy. (This //
-- Flame Retardent Sysadmin       // was in my fortune cookie!)   //
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-- This is a calm .sig! --
--------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: my little contributio
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <1993Mar13.4962.14135@dosgate>
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 20:47:31 GMT
Lines: 34

From article <1993Mar13.4962.14135@dosgate>, by "jonathan forbes" <[e-mail]>:
> -> but all of its contents as well.  This means, if we suddenly tilted
> -> out craft strongly in one direction, and we blazed in another
> -> direction and full speed, our bodies would not be ground into the
> -> upholstery.  Indeed,
>
> Aren't you forgetting about inertia?

  He's forgetting about a lot of things.  Remember, for every action there
  an equal and opposite reaction.  The mass that is generating the diamagnetic
  field, which in turn repulses the electrons, will itself be subjected to
  an equal and opposite force.  What holds that mass in place, hmmm?  At some
  point the force MUST be distributed to some mass or another which is either
  ejected from the craft or is stationary (i.e the earth).  Conservation of
  momentum rules this.  There is a simple fallacy in his resoning. Let me
  make an example:

  I create a craft composed of two masses.  They are, naturally, connected
  to one another as they are part of the same single craft.  Let's say they
  are two spheres, or marbles, encased in a frame or box.  Now, I induce
  one of the masses into generating some 'force' which repels the second
  mass.  What happens?  Easy, the two masses move to opposite extreme ends
  of the enclosure, and stop, assuming the enclosure is strong enough to
  hold the masses together.  Does the whole thing take off into the air,
  or rather, begin to move in the direction of the 'force' on the second
  mass?  NO.

  If I am missing something here, please, someone correct me.

  Max Elliott   [e-mail]

> --
> Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
> 416-629-7000/629-7044
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Cow Mutilations Across the U.S.A.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <1ntob1$[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 20:58:13 GMT
Lines: 34

From article <1ntob1$[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur):
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
> |>   <lots o' stuff about bloodless excision etc.>
> |>
> |>   It's easy to produce bloodless incisions in a test subject. You
> |>   must first drain all the blood from the subject.  simple, huh?
> |>   And, this may be done very cleanly, almost painlessly and with
> |>   absolutely NO mess whatsoever, using simple medical equipment
> |>   available at a pharmacy.  Who might do this you ask?  Well, cults
> |>   are very likely. Think about it. Remove the blood. Drink it and use
> |>   it in rituals, along with a few assorted other parts. Not very
> |>   complicated, easily possible, and even likely.
> |>
> |>   Max Elliott  [e-mail]
>
>
>
> Wake up pal, and smell the coffee...
>
> Do some reading to see the magnitude and scope of the mutilations.

  Well, if the coffee is so strong and easy to smell, why don't I hear
  about it in San Diego.  The media here love far-out stories, yet I
  haven't heard a thing.  If I have to go to my local metaphysical bookstore
  in order to get the low-down, how can this be an event of great proportion?

  I do, on the other hand, hear about cults and their bizzare practices all
  the time. Maybe you could post some media references for these events?
  Like, how many and on what ranch and which network or paper covered and
  documented the event?  Or, you could just point me to where I could get
  those references.... Thx.

  Max Elliott   [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Kenneth S. Guillory)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Syndrome
Date: 15 Mar 1993 23:48:11 GMT
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <1o34jr$[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: nebula.engr.latech.edu
Keywords: brain, sleep, REM

In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Kurt Slama) writes:
>That, and there is a drug that the brain secretes during periods of
>sleep that effects paralysis of the body, the function of which is
>to keep you from thrashing about in your sleep and making noises.
>This is possibly from a time where moving around and making noises
>might attract attention to our sleeping ancestors, thus making them
>vulnerable to predatory attack when they are least aware of it coming.
>waking nightmare of just a few seconds ago.

   Well, It's a little more complicated than just "a drug", it's a
combination of neural signals and neurotransmitters that
temporarily shut down the motor signals flowing through the
pons during REM sleep.  This is completely normal and occurs
in all mammals during their REM sleep cycle to keep them
from "acting out" their dreams.  People with brain damage
that disables this function sometimes wake up as they are
jumping out of bed and sprinting into walls.

>My hand breaks loose of the paralysis. Then my arm. Then I sit up in bed,
>shaking off the effects of the drug, which at that point make me feel no
>worse than any other time I have waken up. Then it's gone, and I can't
>tell that it ever happened, except for the psychological dread of the
>waking nightmare of just a few seconds ago.

  Whenever, one wakes during a REM cycle, it is perfectly normal to
experience some of the residual effects of this until all brain systems are
completely back on-line.  This paralysis is usually percieved not so much
as a physical paralysis as it is a strange psychological inability to instruct
the limbs in question to move.  The vivid recollection of your dreams
is also due to waking somewhere in a REM stage.

Later,
Shane

---
----
Shane Guillory                     Dept of Biomedical Engineering
[e-mail]                  Louisiana Tech University
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Feel the urge to put excessively cute little quotes into your .sig?
                            JUST SAY NO!
If you or one of your friends is frequently plagued by this tendency,
Help IS available, even for those with multi-page .sigs.  Personal and
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From: [e-mail] (Shay Barsabe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Fire in the Sky, oh my!
Date: 16 Mar 1993 00:03:54 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Shay Barsabe)
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To whoever asked about the amount of truth (truth?) in
Fire in the Sky:

I lived in Arizona when this event took place: those
yahoos were up on that mountain having a fine ol' time --
it's a wonder that any of them knew where they were
for the next month, much less a few days.

They were probably doing beer; but, if they were doing
beer and buttons (a popular combo in AZ right then),
I'm surprised that they only came up with flying saucers.

-- In the Pits
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From: [e-mail] (Fogbound Child)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Help me debunk Bob Lazar UFO theory
Date: 15 Mar 1993 16:10:58 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 66
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fogbound Child) writes:

>>Kind of hard for ABC to verify, since 1) Aurora has never been proven to
>>exist, 2) if it does exist, ABC News would have no idea what it looked like,
>>and 3) I can put together video of "something flying around" with a handycam
>>and an Amiga -- no problem. And I can do it well enough that You couldn't tell
>>it from the real thing.


>Yeah, well Popular Mechanics had the artist rendering and an article on
>Aroura last year, and they have connections... They had the Stealth crafts
>on the cover before they were "proven to exist" too.

Yeah, well Popular Mechanics is extremely reputable when speculating about
hi-tech stuff. All that stuff about personal helicopters, oil-tanker subs
under the polar ice-caps, ceramic automobiles, etc.

Pop.Mech also, if my memory serves me, had a picture of the "secret nuclear
plane" (or, rather, artist renditions thereof) long before it was proven
to be a very unsucessful program, that certainly never had flying hardware.

As for connections, they're not that hard to get. What's your point?

>Can't you guys get it thru your exceedingly THICK heads that most
                                             ^^^^^
Thanks. It's nice to see that we can discuss this at a rational level.

>information like this surfaces through leaks long before it is
>publically acknowledged by the goverenment?????????

>Just look at UFO's for christ sake... they are going to have to admit
>to the coverup sooner or later. I guess you can't bring yourselves
>to allow intuitive and reasoned educated guesses based on odds?

Certainly I can. It's what I do for a living, to some extent. The UFO
conspiracy doesn't meet the criteria, though.

>ODDS ARE, UFO's are many times extraterrestrial in nature.

If they're extraterrestrial in nature, you'd have a hard time seeing them
without a telescope. Or do you mean in origin?

I'd argue that the UFOs in question are all terrestrial in origin.

>ODDS ARE, there is an Aroura.

I might give you the odds on this one. All we've got to go on, however, is
a UFO, in the true sense of the word.

>Odds ARE, it's exactly what we think it is, a scramjet vertical takeoff
>aircraft.

More likely to be a horizontal-takeoff, pulsed ramjet.

>But there is no proof.

True, and precisely my point.

>Jeff-
--
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.
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From: [e-mail] (Fogbound Child)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Help me debunk Bob Lazar UFO theory
Date: 15 Mar 1993 16:16:01 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

[e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:

>attribution lost writes:
>>>NO, AROURA is not an anit-gravity machine. That much is KNOWN. they even
>>>had reports that the new plane was used in Desert Storm.

>The plane believed to have been used in Desert Storm is the TR-3a....

>Fogbound Child writes:
>>That much is *not* known. Aurora may well NOT EVEN EXIST. If you compare the
>>evidence from the supposed sightings and the studies from the Copper Canyon
>>project, you begin to suspect that this Aurora business is someone desperately
>>trying to convince you they've got technology that they don't have.

>Hmmmm...... I seem to recall we funded a production run of an aircraft
>called "aurora" in 1985 or so.  It was part of the budget request for the
>A12/SR71 and U-2/TR-1 programs.

Look, there was an unexplained line-item in the budgets that was labelled
"Aurora." There's no good evidence that there was a production run of aircraft.
There's some degree of evidence from the Copper Canyon project that
the aircraft would have serious thermal problems.

Now, I happen to believe that something like Aurora may well. Technical
problems can often be solved when there's political will behind them (like
you see... or rather DON'T see... in the black programs).

But the jump-on-the-bandwagon someone-saw-something-therefore-it-must-be-
a-government-secret mentality is not conducive to an intelligent discussion.

>Rob U
>--
>-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
>-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
>-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
>-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
--
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The UFO And The Pharaoh.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 16:16:39 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

Subject: The UFO And The Pharaoh.
  Some people think that most of the sightings of UFOs started about 1947 but
I believe you will find that they have been happening throughout our
history. Here is some information about UFOs and the past;....An Egyptian
pharaoh observed a huge fleet of UFOs hovering above the desert sands more
than 3,400 years ago - and even went for a joyride on one of the spacecraft!
  Incredibly, translations of hieroglyphic records reveal that Thutmose III,
who reigned 15 centuries before the birth of Christ, first saw a UFO one
winter morning around the year 1482 b.C.
   "The hieroglyphics describe the UFO as a circle of fire," said renowned
author and UFO expert Brad Steiger.  "The object emitted no sound, as
indicated by the inscription 'it had no voiec.'
  :The hieroglyphic records go on to say, "After some days had passed, these
things became more numerous in the skies than ever."
  The UFOs in this fleet were extremely bright or more than the brightness of
the sun, and were relatively small, about 16 feet in diameter.
  :"They were probably spacecraft from a mother ship."
  Incredibly, Thutmose III was taken aboard one of the alien spacecraft, said
UFO expert and biblical scholar Zecharia Sitchin, author of the book The
Stairway to Heaven.
  The ancient records reveal that Thutmose "flew up to the sky" and learned
the "mysterious ways in heaven," Sitchin said.
  "Without a doubt, that passage describes a trip into space.
  "Thutmose III was transported by space shuttle to a space station in orbit
above the Earth.
  "The report of Thutmose proves that ancient astronauts visited Earth long
ago."
JW  If read a book many years ago that was called Earth's Destiny, or
something like that. It told about a Earth person who was taken up into a
mother ship and was seated aruound a table. He saw another Earth person
seated across the table from him that turned out be the late US president we
called Ike.
Source of Information: Weekly World News March 23, 1993 page 44.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: UFO Operation.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 16:48:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 32

Subject: UFOs Take Sick People Too.
   In the past some people said that they were glad that they weren't perfect
physical specimens and therefore they wouldn't be abducted by the space
people. I think the following information will prove them wrong;,,,,A woman
who claims she has been repeatedly abducted by space aliens says her bizarre
close encounters saved he a hospital bill - but cost her a job!
  Alvena Scott says extraterrestrials forced her to submit to experiments over
the past six years.
  Now, the 40-year-old Vancouver, Canada, woman is claiming that news accounts
of her experiences led to her forced resignation from her job as a bank
receptionist.
  Her first abduction came in 1985, while she was awaiting surgery to repair a
malfunctioning left kidney. She was swept up into a UFO by a group of
friendly ETs, who successfully operated on her.
  The out-of-this world surgery enabled her to cancel a planned visit to an
earhly operating room.
  Then, in January 1990, two months before she began working at the Royal Bank
in Vancouver, Alvena says she had a much scarier close encounter.  This
time, she says, the ETs were "sinister and insect-like."
  The creatures were only interested in probing her body in a brutal fashion,
she says.
  Although Alvena couldn't prove her suspicion that ETs had tried to
impregnate her, she insisted the abductions were real, even after reprimands
from her supervisors.  She was finally forced to resign on August 23.
  "I guess they were afraid of UFO stuff," Alvena sighs.
  A bank spokesman denies tha Alvena was forced out of her job and says she
resigned on her own. Even so, she's lodged a complaint with the Canadian
Human Rights Commission.
JW Sometimes the treatment you get by your fellow human beings is worse than
the treatment you get from the space people abducting you.
Source Of Information: Page 42 Februalry 16, 1993/EXAMINER.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: UFO Convention Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 07:36:27 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 66

Subject: UFO Convention. Part 2.
  I was mentioning before about the UFO Convention now in progress at San
Diego, Calif.  March 12-15, 1993 and the lady who treats people who have
been abducted. Here is some more information on that subject;....Sri
Donato's advice and wisdom is based upon over twenty years of pioneering
research into, she says, "the levels and depths of the mind that are
vitually unknow at this time."
  The way Sri Donato sees it,  "The alien Harvesters are violating Divine Law
by taking your God-given Free Will away from you.  They give you no choice.
They take your body, insert implants which tag you for the rest of your
life.  they stun your mind, wipe out your memory of time and space, and drop
you back with the mutilated cattle-only you mutilation is in the form of
confusion, nightmares, fears and phobias, leaving you feeling helpless.  The
'Harvesters' are the ultimate thieves-they are a dark, demonic invasion.
They are aliens who have no respect or reverence for you body, your mind, or
your divine spirtit."
  There is now, according to Sri Donato, something that can be done about this
vampire-like situation.  "There is now direct help available to victims that
are suffering the prolonged traumatic effects of abduction.  This direct
help is beyond the traditional means everyone is familiar with and includes
the following categories.
1. WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD THEIR FETUSES STOLEN BY ALIENS.
2. MOTHERS WHO ARE ABDUCTEES AND FEAR FOR THE SAFETY OF THEIR CHILDREN.
3. THE NEUTRALIZATION OF IMPLANTS.
4. NIGHTMARES CAUSED BY ALIEN INTRUSIONS WITHIN THE SUBCONSCIOUS MINDS.
5. THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PSYCHIC LEVELS OF THE MIND.
6. GENERATIONAL TAMPERING BY ALIENS.
  All these categories deal with alien violation of Universsal Law.  "The
technique," say her followers, "that Sri Donato uses provides protection and
repair for any damage previously done physically, mentally, and spiritually.
 Hypnosis is not used in this technique, nor is regression.  Many people
fear being hypnotized, not knowing what they may say, or that it may not
work. In Morningland, with Sri Donato and the lamas, the abduction
experience is released naturally and seen from the clear view of the higher
mind.
  According to Moringland's technique,  "Abductees are released from their
fears and traumas and are never bothered again. The vibration and frequency
of the master Sri Donato is so high that the coercive mental tactics used by
intruding  aliens are neutralized within the coal of protection. And if an
abductee has been implanted by the aliens, the implant is rendered useless
as Sri Donato activates the vision healing ray within you.
  The scribes at Morningland claim that they  have case after successful case
to point to, offering one such incident involving a woman who was abducted
at intervals throughout her life starting in childhood.  "My abductions
began when I was just seven," says the woman.  "They continued repeatedly
until I met Sri Donato.  Using her process I had full recollection of all my
abductions and intrusion of the aliens without any fear or trama normally
associated with these terrifying events. Without hypnosis, I consciously
remembered detailed accounts of being taken aboard their ships, the surgical
procedures performed  on me, and the implant they put in. I remember when I
was 21, the incident where the aliens attempted to abduct my first daughter.
 My second daughter was plagued by nightmares which I knew was of alien
doing. No matter where I lived or who I was with, they found me. The
abductions continued and increased from once or twice a year to almost every
other month.  Being with Sri Donato, I am no longer bothered by the aliens
and I'm convince my family is now safe. During the last abduction attempt, I
called out to Sri Donato and she appeared, changing completely the
terrifying experience of  abduction to one of light and divine intervention."
  Some of the lectures that Sri Donato will be giving at the convention are
the following; Sleeping With The Enemy-Where And How The Aliens Penetrate
Into The Dreamline And How To Protect Yourself From That Intrusion. Those
wishing direct contact with Sri Donato may reach her through Morningland,
2600 East 7th Street, Long Beach. CA 90804.
JW  I don't know folks. Does this sound serious or what? Please don't confuse
the Harvesters with the good guys from the Federation.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 08:02:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I would also like to know about that whatsit that fell
in the San Francisco Bay Area.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: How do we know who tells the truth here???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 08:08:44 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 106

Bert comments

>I'd like to know, for real, whether these ET exist and fly through space
>and visit Earth every now and then---or even if ET exist at all and don't
>visit Earth.  I believe it is possible ET life exists somewhere and that
>it is somewhat feasible they might visit the Earth, but I've never seen
>anything personally to prove they exist. I've never seen any flying
>saucers.  I haven't seen any ET.  I have dreams about them all the time,
>but dreams aren't real.

Thanks for the post Bert.

I ran into ETs through the back door.  My first contact was Edgar Cayce's
trance work.  After studying his work I came away with two basic concepts
that I have spent my life working on when I am not making a living.  The
first is reincarnation and the second is higher or ET Intelligence being
available.

Being a computer technician at the time (late sixties) I figured
reincarnation would be fairly easy to investigate.  Since one had lived a
past lives one should be able to remember them, after all they were there.
So it was only a matter of finding a technique to troubleshoot ones mind so
they could remember their forgotten lives.  The search didn't take to long
and the technique turned out to be really simple.  I just had to ask people
and be willing to receive their answer.  The people who couldn't remember
easily,  I used a GSR meter that helped located the memories or locate what
was blocking the memory.

Well in the process of assisting several hundred people one guy came to me
for a session wanting to know why he had so much trouble trusting people.
So I took him into one life where he was a sheriff and trusted a deputy and
got killed.  Since death is usually a pattern when we finished that life I
asked him if there was an earlier similar lifetime dealing with trusting
people and he came up with a couple more in during the last 2000 years on
this planet.  Then I asked him if there was an earlier similar incident and
he came up with one that went back over 100,000 years and he was on a
flying saucer and accidentally destroyed a planet because he trusted the
navigators input.

As a side to show clearing.  I then asked him what all we had looked at
represented and he said justice and I then asked what justice represented
and he said love and floated away (left very happy).  This thing that had
been bugging him for a few hundred thousand years was gone.

So that really peaked my interest in ETs.  After all if guy had flown a
saucer several hundred thousand years ago,  that could mean they were still
around. Not the same one but saucers in general. :-)

So between this guy and the other several hundred who willingly, sort of,
told me about their past deaths and lives. I had a lot of questions I could
not find answers for from earth humans and was forced to seek out ET
intelligence to get the answers.  Then I found Seth. Seth Speaks took me
two years to finish.  I would pick it up, read a paragraph and fall asleep
(go unconscious). Finally during 2 weeks in Hawaii with some Thai tops
mixed with hash oil I finished Seth Speaks and The Nature of Personal
Reality.

So Bert those ETs you are dreaming about are your contact.  Be open to
receiving what they are offering. A part of you has asked for the contact
so get the other part to quit negating and discrediting it because it is
only dreams.  There is where most of your learning takes place.  As Seth
said "People are more awake when they are asleep then they are when they
are awake".

Now what constitutes ET?  What if you lived on another planet in your last
lifetime? Does that make you an ET in this life, on this planet? I know two
people who have actually remembered traveling to this planet in none
physical form flying past stars to get here. One person remembered it in a
dream, the other, it was during a breathwork session in my hot tub.  Or
what if like a lot of us you are addicted to this planet,  but came hear
100,000 years ago. Are you an ET? How many lives would one have to live on
this planet to loss their ET stigma?

But lets go beyond that.  What if you are total earth stock. You started
out as an amoeba and kept hoping into the next most advanced life form
until whala human life forms started and you started going through those.
Even if you are that it is entirely possible you have another aspect, or
self that is currently an ET, in an ET body aboard a ship. You can contact
and learn from that self in your sleep.  But you are basically telling that
self to go to hell because you believe that dreams are not real.

The ETs that talked to Meier said that our current human is seeded from ETs
50,000 plus or minus some, years ago. Would that not make us all ETs?  Just
maybe a lot or a few of us chose to come here from our alien culture to get
earth ready to allow more species.

Maybe earth was designed to be a meeting spot and show case of the
universe. A habitat for all life forms to live and share love and
knowledge.  Maybe most of the contacts are hopefully awaiting for us to
grow up enough to allow them to peacefully coexist with us or at least
visit without getting shot.

From what I have been studying from my ET friends it is not possible for a
body to be alive without an ET aspect.  If you look at it as the universe
being a hologram. I like the atom as an example.  With the nucleus as the
body and the outer shells as the levels of consciousness or energy
available.  As we know the only physical part of the atom is the nucleus
and the electron shells are nothing but charged particles. With each shell
having different energy characteristics.  We know that if we change the
electron configuration the atom will become something else. So we all have
charged shells or consciousness that is ET, it is just that since we have
absolute free will we can chose to ignore it or not believe it or created
an image of ourself that cannot conceive it.  We can ignore and/or deny our
ET connection just as we can chose to ignore our sexuality.

Don Showen
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!aludra.usc.edu!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Fogbound Child)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Help me debunk Bob Lazar UFO theory
Date: 15 Mar 1993 16:36:58 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

[e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:

>[e-mail] (Fogbound Child) writes:

>>That much is *not* known. Aurora may well NOT EVEN EXIST. If you compare the
>>evidence from the supposed sightings and the studies from the Copper Canyon
>>project, you begin to suspect that this Aurora business is someone desperately
>>trying to convince you they've got technology that they don't have.

>    Except for the airline pilot sightings, the viewer on the ground
>sightings, the people in northern Europe sightings, and the seismic
>"footptints" (known as "skyquakes") that are something which most aviation
>enthusiasts refer to as "Aurora".....other than that, Aurora probably
>doesn't exist....   :-)  :-)

I've read the articles on the subject. I scan Aviation Leakly. Don Allen
posted a fairly good collection of articles on the subject.

I'm not denying the possibility of the existence of the plane(s). I'm not
100% convinced either. A lot depends on the witnesses, you know. I don't
happen to believe the 200 some-odd sightings of Elvis last year, nor the
countless sightings of the Virgin Mary. I belive that that witnesses are
for the most part sincere, but I don't believe what they do.

In the UFO community, you have the added complexity that many of the
witnesses are NOT sincere, and are in it for the money and/or fame.


>>>ABC stated in no uncertain terms, this thing you see flying around is NOT, NOT<
>>>NOT Aroura.

>(being speculative......)
>    Various news networks have SEEN footage of some of the current
>"black aircraft" but will not show it for security reasons - some of the
>networks have probably shot footage themselves.  They may well be able
>to state that "this isn't "Aurora", because with no other knowledge of
>just what project "Aurora" involves, the other stuff is far too different
>from the film they already have.  Or maybe not.  My suspiscion, backed

Anyone who trusts television networks for reliable news just doesn't
understand capitalism. Maybe they do have footage. Maybe they don't. Maybe
they figure it'll help their ratings if they pretend to know more than they
do. And anyway, as I said before, I can generate some pretty convincing
footage myself with a Video Toaster or an SGI.

>by some other av. freaks similar suspiscions, is that "Aurora" is
>probably NOT a single airframe, but covers a whole BUNCH of different
>airframes that are for varying purposes....although they most likely all
>fly REAL high and REAL fast.  And most likely, they are all for intelligence
>gathering purposes, i.e., an SR71 replacement, in SPITE of what USAF
>said, probably as a smokescreen.......

Agreed. Seems likely.

>>>>>>  They things are not bound by G-forces and normal gravity.
>>>>>
>>>>>  So far then, AS USUAL WITH UFO REPORTS, it comes down to FOAF
>>>>>  and other word-of-mouth stories.   No actual evidence so we
>>>>>  can decide for ourselves about whether they are bound by
>>>>>  "normal" gravity.
>>>>>

>    Interesting commentary - *everything* is in some way bound by
>or perhaps, WITH gravity.....the question is, do you have enough energy
>to *overcome* gravity, assuming you know HOW to do so??????

>>Or where there's smoke, there may well be a smoke machine, designed to
>>confuse the gullible.

>    You hit one of the nails right on the head - that is possibly THE
>most common tactic used in the Black Projects community....

I can neither confirm nor deny being part of said community.

>Duane

--
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Paranet News Groups
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:26:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: This Michael Corbin sounds like a nice person to me.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:28:58 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: Let me be the first to ignore this person.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: BEHOLD A STALE HORSE - Cooper expose' 5 Star!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:41:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear One and All: Very interesting. I just recorded this. I will have
to give it a once of twice over.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!aludra.usc.edu!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Fogbound Child)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Help me debunk Bob Lazar UFO theory
Date: 15 Mar 1993 16:43:14 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

[e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>>...
>>>Odds ARE, it's exactly what we think it is, a scramjet vertical takeoff
>>>aircraft.                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Hmm.  Where'd you get that from?  Even "Aviation Leak" hasn't mentioned
>>that, or did I miss an article?
>>
>>Jeff

>The information I have seen, which is somewhat conjecture, is that it has vents
>or ports all over it for vectoring thrust, and these could be used for very
>short, or non-existant take-offs. It has been my theory that the B2 is
            ^^^

Ah! I knew you'd see the light, eventually. Non-existent take-offs are
EXACTLY what I've been talking about. 8)

...

>Jeff-

Howsabout an Osprey Tiltrotor stapled across the bow of, say, Atlantis?
Get that good-ol V22 thrust vectoring on a bird that'll hit orbital
velocity. Yeeeee-haw. Guidance provided by a Sgt. York...
--
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: FILE: Mar/Apr93 Orvotron Newsletter - Ashtar on Team effort
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 14:08:31 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Folks: The was very good information. It was good to hear what
Ashtar had to say. He is definitely one of the good guys.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs negative?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 14:20:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Folks: I believe you will find that Jeff is telling you the truth.
The Greys were allowed to come here with the help of the good type
space people so that they can innerbreed with us and come up with a new
better civilization. The Greys are total logic, we are very emotional,
mixed the two and you get a better civilization.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 14:23:27 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Folks: Sedona is place to go. I have been there.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Erika Stokes)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: We cannot give clone cells life, Sagan...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Mar 93 22:44:51 GMT
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It is perfectly possible to give life to a clone cell--it may not have been
done yet or maybe it has--no one really knows for sure that it hasn't.

To give life to a clone cell one must use the undifferentiated cells of such
organs as the intestines.  One must take the body cell nucleus and put it into
an egg cell that has had it's own DNA removed--a simple process once one
figures out how to get it to work.  Once the egg cell has the new DNA in it
it is implanted in a woman who carries it to term.  The result is a clone of
the DNA donator.  However, we must keep in mind two things:

    1)  Replicative Fade--you know what happens when you photocopy a
photocopy and then photocopy the new copy and so on?  Each successive copy
is less clear and easy to read.  The same thing would happen, theoretically,
to clones--after several clonings the DNA would lose a piece here and there
resulting in clones that are not really clones and are lacking in important
pieces of genetic information.  In order to avoid such fade, all clone cells
for other clones would have to come from the original donor.

    2)  There really is no such thing as a clone, especially in humans.
Differences in prenatal care of the donor and clone and differences in the
environment in which each matures contribute to differences in the two
'individuals' (can I use that word in reference to clones?).


We must also remember nature's clones--the most commonly known is a set of
identical twins--an undifferentiated group of 8 or so cells divides entirely
and separates rather than dividing into a group of 16 cells.  We then have
a clone.  Or is it two clones?  Which of the two individuals comes first?  :)


                        --Erika
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From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: KRLL files and Gary S.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
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[e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:



>Hmmm.  Is this Gary Stollman mentioned in the KRLL file the same Gary
>Stollman who (infrequently, these days) posts here?
>Whatever happened to the pellet gun, Gary?

>--
>[e-mail]

>Guru Meditation:

*****
I gave to David Horowitz to kill some roaches...

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Carl Sagan's Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
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[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

>Richard,
>I read the article................coming from MJ7 (7 of 12 that is):-) it's
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Where's the evidence?

    Somebody should *prove* that this MJ stuff exists before making
such statements.  Such proof should indicate that it even has anything
to do with anything, let alone UFO's.....

>not surprising that he takes this position.

    I think Sagan takes this position because he is a scientist,
and science has not proved that anything bizarre is really happening.
And probably won't, if we can't get some of the crackpots of the UFO
world to just plain SHUT THE HELL UP so the subject could start being
taken seriously.

Duane

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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Carl Sagan's Article
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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[e-mail] (Curt A. Humphrey) writes:

>  I for one do not agree with Sagan he is not looking at the total situation.
> I will be the first to agree I have not seen actual evidence to the Fact
> that UFO's are real. But when you look back How did we know the Moon and
> Planets where real Sure we looked at them and could see them just Like UFO's
>you can see them and take a Pic of them. But no one can show you one up close.
>the point I am making here is Sagan needs to be able to touch the craft in
>order to beleive they are real. Which brings up another question I don't think
>sagan was on any of the moon Missions so How does he know the Moon is Real?


    Er, excuse me but we *do* have some nice rocks which were returned
from the moon, and which I'd bet Sagan has been ALL OVER.

    Science does not deal in pure speculation without being able to
theorize and experiment on the matter.  Sagan is a scientist.  When
UFO people stop putting forth crackpot bullshit and START putting forth
some real and useful material, then Sagan and other scientists can
start looking seriously at the issue.

    Do you believe in Moscow? Hawaii? Australia? New Zealand?  HAve you
been to all of them *personally*?  If not, do you doubt their existance?

Duane

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Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Wayne McDougall)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 12:51:56 NZST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Code Works Limited, PO Box 10 155, Auckland, New Zealand
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[e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (M
> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail].e
>
> >%I had a Jewish girlfriend who broke her ankle.  Has anyone else slept with
> >%someone Jewish who broke a bone, or knows someone who has?
>
>   I very frequently sleep with a Jewish woman who once broke her arm.
>   Sometimes we even have sex.  My wife knows all about this and it
>   doesn't bother her a bit!

"That was no woman, that was my wife!"

Boom Boom


--
  Wayne McDougall : #DISCLAIMER# These views are shared by Bill.
             Ask me about the Auckland Festival of Missions, 18-25 April, 1993
I always change my mind when new evidence is available. What method do you use?

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From: [e-mail] (Erika Stokes)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Are Dolphins Space People?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 01:33:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Sure they are--have't you ever read Douglas Adams?  Especially _So_Long_
and_Thanks_For_All_the_Fish. :)

--Erika
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From: [e-mail] (Jonathan Papai)
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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[e-mail] (Wayne McDougall) writes:
>[e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>   I very frequently sleep with a Jewish woman who once broke her arm.
>>   Sometimes we even have sex.  My wife knows all about this and it
>>   doesn't bother her a bit!
>
>"That was no woman, that was my wife!"

Nelson (no relation to Bill I hope) sleeps with Wayne's wife?

Jon "Incredulous" Papaiapapnoj
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From: [e-mail] (Jamie Paul CURMI)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 05:40:33 GMT
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[e-mail] (Daniel Chung) writes:

>     Here is something for everyone to think about.  There are U.F.O.
>phenomenon, and there are unexplained psychic phenomenon, and there
>are things like life after death, et cetera.

>     Has anyone ever thought that perhaps we can *never* explain them,
>or that currently there is *no way* to explain them, or to make the
>truth known.

>     Perhaps using our perception and comprehension, we cannot understand
>the propulsion of U.F.O.'s and cannot understand why ghosts are there,
>and cannot understand how psychokinesis and extrasensory perception works.

>     Because it would be like telling a dog how to drive a car,
>or explaining to it how a car works.

Yeah, I've often thought about this Daniel.  I think it's unbelievable
that so many human beings feel that they are so vastly intelligent that they
can understand everything.  We are intelligent compared to other life on
the planet, but that doesn't mean we can understand everything.

It's like when Christian Fanatics hassle me in the streets and ask
me if I "believe in God", and I say "no".  They then say, "but how do you
explain why there is life in the universe etc.. etc.."  And I say, "well
I can't.  I don't believe humans can really comprehend such a thing,
so I don't pretend to.  But I don't need to use some 'God' to explain
things... I just accept that I will proably never know."

Too many people in the world really believe they have all the answers.
I'm a very sceptical person, but I could never join, say, the Australian
Sceptics, because these people really believe that because they can't
understand it, it mustn't be true.

Keep an open mind...but not so open your brain falls out.

Jamie

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------            Jamie P. Curmi  ([e-mail], [e-mail])                      Department of Computer Science,   Department of Mathematics
         The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria, Australia            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    *** Mutate NOW - avoid the rush! ***
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Answers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 05:43:53 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> Goodmorning World I Love You. I love Kibo, Rich, Dan, Aaron, Don,
> Carl, Jaguar and Robert. I love everybody.

Even Morton Downey Junior?

You know, right as you said "I love Kibo" I found this really big piece
of chicken in my pot pie!

It's like a whole breast or something.

Say that six times fast.

> We are all on this space
> ship called Earth in a sealed atmosphere

Except for those darn nuisances like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong who
LEFT the planet once and thus forfeited citizenship on our planet.  I
hear they're being deoprted back to the Moon with a lifetime supply of Tang.

> so we are going to have to
> breath our own breath.

I'd be willing to pay to breathe someone else's, especially if it's Cher's.

                        _-_K.

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <1993Mar15.230641.16585@bsu-ucs>
Date: 16 Mar 93 04:06:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>The contrast between Dr. Gordon's report and Sagan's --- whatever
>>it is, personal bias, disinformation, anything but 'science' -- is
>>quite striking.
>
> Sagan's paper is the one full of holes.  He would have us believe that we
> could be dumb enough or gullible enough to mistake the events surrounding the
> paralysis for an alien abduction.

Or, as the article plainly intends, "human" enough to believe so.  We
interpret the sense data fed us all the time.  Our interpretations are
constantly adjusted for bias and perceptual set (without which our world
might be one of overwhelming chaos --  my basic college-level understanding).
They are sometimes wrong in describing what actually occurs in reality, but
this misinterpretation does not necessarily make one dumb or gullible.

>
> Well I have news for him.  It happened to me when I was 6, and I knew what it
> was even WHILE it was happening.  And I've never heard of this syndrome until
> last week.  So if a 6 year old child, completely clueless about this condition
> can discern its true nature even as it is happening, then there's no way that
> adult human beings can be taken in by the experience!  This explanation is
> therefore invalid.

The fact YOU have evidence that is, in your opinion, contradictory does
not invalidate the explanation.  You are one individual with one example...
perhaps you are exceptional.  The explanation might apply to everyone else, or
a large fraction thereof.  Besides, I thought children were the ones with
amazing insight...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[e-mail]                            Vinney Szopa
Ball State University        Muncie, IN            USA
"It's hard being a man, living in a garbage pail." -Lou Reed
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 16 Mar 93 19:07:55 NZST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
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[e-mail] (Jonathan Papai) writes:

>>>   I very frequently sleep with a Jewish woman who once broke her arm.
>>>   Sometimes we even have sex.  My wife knows all about this and it
>>>   doesn't bother her a bit!

>>"That was no woman, that was my wife!"

> Nelson (no relation to Bill I hope) sleeps with Wayne's wife?
> Jon "Incredulous" Papaiapapnoj

   And from New Zealand no less ! The rumors about the size of the Kiwi male's
sexual equipment seem to have some basis in fact...

--
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand. [e-mail]
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."--gene spafford,1992
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 16 Mar 93 19:05:13 NZST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Welligton City Council, Public Access.
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[e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: I hereby state that I'm not going to or having any meetings
> and don't send any money to anybody. Do I make myself clear. Well I
> never.
> John Winston

   Hey ! Anyone here work for the IRS ?...

--
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand. [e-mail]
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."--gene spafford,1992
Xref: icaen sci.energy:14172 alt.alien.visitors:14471 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:3134
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Harris)
Subject: Re: Sweet 500 Watts free energy machine on tape?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: free energy
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 06:48:31 GMT
Lines: 39

[e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:

>Hi,
> I just got the info, that there is a videotape available, which shows
> the Bearden/Sweet free energy device producing 500 Watts of power to  a
>  load without any moving parts..

>  Is this true ?

>  Where can I buy this tape ?

>  Has anybody seen yet this device working ?

>Ray Berry, please contact me again, I lost your email adress !


>Best regards, Stefan Hartmann
>email to: [e-mail]


>--
>*************************************************************
>*  Stefan Hartmann                                          *
>*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
>*  Phone : ++ 49 30 375 55 68      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *

Do you mean that you would believe in this thing if you saw a video
showing it working? Jeez I can make you a video like that. How much will
you pay for it? Sorry guys. There's no such thing as a free lunch - or
free energy. Well maybe there is but I am willing to bet $1000 to all
takers that there isn't. Somebody please prove me wrong!



--
 >The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme <
 >Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the   <
 >generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. - Thomas Jefferson      <
>>> Finger for my armored text pgp public key. Internet:[e-mail] <<<
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Mike Harris)
Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Syndrome
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 07:00:08 GMT
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[e-mail] (Kurt Slama) writes:


>That, and there is a drug that the brain secretes during periods of
>sleep that effects paralysis of the body, the function of which is
>to keep you from thrashing about in your sleep and making noises.
>This is possibly from a time where moving around and making noises
>might attract attention to our sleeping ancestors, thus making them
>vulnerable to predatory attack when they are least aware of it coming.
>   Several times, I have awaken in a half-conscious state and found
>myself paralyzed. It isn't really scary to me, like there is an imminent
>attack by some monster and I must get away, but scary like an animal
>being scared to death for the simple fact that it can't move or get away.
>Most commonly I have an urge to get up like I'm doing a situp. I simply
>cannot move *anything*.it's like being dead but still alive. This doesn't
>happen very often, but it's quite an experience. I know I am not imagining
>things, because every time I wake up in that state and slowly but gradually
>become more conscios and the paralysis goes away gradually. I'm trying
>as hard as I can to escape, and then I just budge a finger. I barely
>manage to move my lip. I open an eye. I move several fingers at a time.
>My hand breaks loose of the paralysis. Then my arm. Then I sit up in bed,
>shaking off the effects of the drug, which at that point make me feel no
>worse than any other time I have waken up. Then it's gone, and I can't
>tell that it ever happened, except for the psychological dread of the
>waking nightmare of just a few seconds ago.

This happens to almost all of the male decendants of my paternal
grandfather but not to the women. It used to scare me a lot. The funny
thing is that my entire family is very Mormon (except me) and without
exception all of us (I was very mormon at the time too) attributed it to
demonic possesion the first time we experienced it.

Gradually I have come to even enjoy this feeling and have found it
disappears when you stop fighting it. When this happens now (very rarely) I
like to try to drift back to sleep without moving or waking but I am rarely
successful at this. I usually wake up as soon as I try not too. It is a
real cool floaty feeling though accompanied by a low frequency vibration
and it is very enjoyable once you begin letting yourself experience it.

I think this is just the bodies way of cutting off muscle movement at the
spinal chord to prevent us from acting out our dreams. I've read that
narcoleptics can experience the same thing while awake. I don't know why
it doesn't seem to happen as much to females - at least in my family.


--
 >The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme <
 >Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the   <
 >generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. - Thomas Jefferson      <
>>> Finger for my armored text pgp public key. Internet:[e-mail] <<<
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!graz
From: [e-mail] (Steve Graziano)
Subject: Re: ALIENS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 07:01:40 GMT
Lines: 26

The Watcher ([e-mail]) wrote:
: I have noticed that a great many of you people would like to meet these little
: gray aliens.  Bad move.  These little fuckers are ruthless and the closest
: things to devils made with flesh.  They don't know love or compassion; they
: think of you as animals, not equals.  The only emotion these fuckers feel is
: fear and I intend on making them afraid every chance I get.  You can hang out
: with them if you want, but don't try to reason with them.  You can't reason
: with creatures that think you're an animal.  Me I plan on killing them at my
: every opertunity.  If I can I will Murder them as a race.

I suppose one could say then, that their fear is justified, and that we
may as well be animals to them with.  Not tryin to flame ya, ok...I am.
But I have a question.  You seem to have taken the subject a bit seriously,
have you had an encounter with greys to justify your feelings or have
you based your opininions on what you have read?

Just curious...

:                             The Watcher.

--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
[ Inet: [e-mail] |  "What could possibly go wrong?" - Bubsy Bobcat    ]
[ Steve Graziano        |  SEX!...made you look!                             ]
\----------------------------------------------------------------------------/

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From: [e-mail] (Steve Graziano)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
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Daniel Chung ([e-mail]) wrote:


:      Here is something for everyone to think about.  There are U.F.O.
: phenomenon, and there are unexplained psychic phenomenon, and there
: are things like life after death, et cetera.

:      Has anyone ever thought that perhaps we can *never* explain them,
: or that currently there is *no way* to explain them, or to make the
: truth known.

:      Perhaps using our perception and comprehension, we cannot understand
: the propulsion of U.F.O.'s and cannot understand why ghosts are there,
: and cannot understand how psychokinesis and extrasensory perception works.

:      Because it would be like telling a dog how to drive a car,
: or explaining to it how a car works.

:                     Daniel Chung (Mr.)

Unless it was a dog from the furry planet Jube Jube, in which case s/he
would explain it to you.

Steve "Don't mind me." Graziano
--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
[ Inet: [e-mail] |  "What could possibly go wrong?" - Bubsy Bobcat    ]
[ Steve Graziano        |  SEX!...made you look!                             ]
\----------------------------------------------------------------------------/

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From: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Review w/spoilers Fire in the Sky
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 08:35:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Organization: Emergency Third Rail Power Trip
Lines: 282


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>--
>I saw the movie "Fire in the Sky" over the weekend. After seeing the movie
>and reading some previous posts I have some questions. Actually it boils
>down to 1 major question - What is true in the movie according to the Walton
>testimony and what is Hollywood hype?
>
>I do now want to spoil the movie for anyone so I can't go into great detail
>about specifics here. The basic thing at the heart of my question is this:
>In the movie Walton is subject to some pretty wicked LIVE (no sleep or
>anesteisia) physical examination by his captors. Yet some previous articles
>on the net describe things differently according to Walton's testimony.
>
>So what gives? Is the movie full of hype or is it accurate? (I know I know,
>what some of you are going to say - GET A LIFE AND BUY THE BOOK. Well I'm
>just looking for a quick answer here. I may read the book later when I have
>time).
>
>Thanks,
>
>Marty
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [e-mail]|"Could you please continue the petty bickering?
>        Marty Henderson        |   I find it most intriguing."   ---    Data,
>    Woodland Park, Colorado    |    Star Trek, The Next Generation, "Haven"
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


I have thought several times about posting about this movie which
I recently saw. I have started working on an article, and several times
stopped because I felt the need to work from a full synopsis, which
of course spoils everything if you are not the movie critic type,
like me :) who thinks I should get a synopsis in advance before
going to a movie. Actually one of the things one should if possible
do, is read the Travis Walton book, or get a synopsis of events as
he reported them. This should be done whether you believe the story,
think it is all bunk, or just find it intriguing.

Note after this paragraph come some potential spoilers. Mostly they
involve the "onboard the craft" sequences in the movie. A lot of the
movie is tied up with the "human story" and all the things that went
on before Travis Walton reappeared after being missing for five days
The fact that the powers that be intially thought of foul play and not
a hoax means they thought something was going on.

Feep! It will now get more spoiler-ish. OK, here goes with the review
from the point of view of the person (me:) who thinks something rather
interesting but what it is isn't exactly clear.

The movie can basically divided into two sorts of major sets of actions
and concepts. The first set deals with the "human story", and how Travis
and his companions interacted, how they related to related to their lovers,
the community, the authorities etc. This occupies a lot of the running
time of the movie, maybe over 2/3rds of it. The second is the "Encounter"
and the "On-Ship Sequences." Much of the story is told in flashback, as
one might expect. We enter with Travis' companions high-tailing it in
their beat-up logging truck away from what anyone who had heard the
story knows is the "The Encounter."

After they call the Sheriff who calls in a special investigator, and
we see in flash back a long-set-up detailing Mike (the head of the logging
crew), Travis, Dallis (who dislikes Travis), two other stock chartacters,
a naive kid, and a mild but likeable holly holler. This is pretty much
stock, but the musical background is done very well. They seemed to catch
that drizzly drifting mid-1970s feeling, when everything seemed to be in
a quasi-statis, Nixon had resigned, Ford was President, Rock Music was
kind of stagnating, Art Rock having never reall fully caught on, and
Punk Rock had not really occured yet, and besides one is in the middle of
nowhere on top of it all.

This makes the pacing kind of good, first rapid action, police investigation
starts, set-up slowly told in flashback. Then we come to the Initial Encouter
which I feel has been often been very much neglected in UFO reportage. This
part is pretty well done as far as I can tell too. We are with the logging
crew, after a long and eventful day. They are driving back into town from
their logging site in a National Wilderness where they have thinning trees.
As they go down the main logging road, one of their number, Dallis, sees
something strange in the woods, it is a light, he then does the "what's it
is that..." sort of take. At this point we are sort of in the "horror-movie"
set-up, we know more than they know that, >something significant< is going
to happen. It feels very much like the "First Real Sighting Of The Monster"
sequence in a Science Fiction/Horror Movie. Now, after a few of the people
in the truck have noticed, we get to see what they see. The woods streaming
with a bright red-orange light. They think it is perhaps a forest fire or
crashed aeroplane. We of course know it isn't, we know the story, and we
of course see the light streaming up too purely and mono-chromatically.

They of course at this point think it is just something vanilla. Of
course as might be expected Mike, the crew foreman, has some misgivings
about this but they are based on his belief that this is a forest fire.
This is especially important since to get to the source of the light,
one has to go up a side road on which they could get stranded. He
mentions that "the only way out of this place is the way we came in".
At that point they drive up to the open clearing which is lit with a
bright and eerie light. Travis jumps out of the truck to go investigate.
He walks and then almost runs towards the light which they can't really
see the source of, his companions are clearly a little spooked, they
call him to come back. He ignores their calls and walks on, suddenly
the camera backs off and a large object seems to materialize above
him. It is a huge luminous vaguely flying saucer shaped but made of
something between light and solid. Red light streams down. We see Travis
looking up at the bottom of the object, it has that sort of "molten iron"
look, red with cracks of bright yellow shining thru. At this point a
blue-green light comes down out of craft and spot-light fashion illuminates
Travis. He now becomes alarmed, but he can't flee. He is jerked back
dissappears leaving only his clothes or so it appears, then they
dissappear. One of his companions screams: "He's dead!" and then
Mike turns the truck around and they flee hightailing it down the road.

After this we pop back to the present time vis-a-vis the movie. Then
is a long section of how there is a search for a Travis' body and
how none is found. A dramatic setup involving having the companions
taking a lie-detector test, which all but one pass. And that test is
"inconclusive" and all sorts of things like that. After a long while
of domestic and small town hollywood chiche' and when it all seems
bleak, Mike gets a collect call from Travis and they go to pick him
up in some remote gas station where he is found covering naked against
an ice chest. He is very freaked and his companions approaching him
cause him to freak and have a flash-back to an "onboard craft" sequence.

Before I describe that, let me mention that I thought the "First Encounter"
sequence was well done. And was relatively close to the book. At least
as well as I remember it after having read it years ago. It also matches
what other people have reported with UFO encounters. Alas this is not
to be the case with other "onboard craft" sequences, which perhaps I should
describe before I complain about them.

Travis has first freaky flash-back, he awakes in a strange bed like space,
it has curtains hanging over it, or is it webbing? His manages to move his
arm his hand is stuck in what any old stage hand will know to be partially
jelled gelatine, but we are supposed to find perhaps are some sorts of
secretions. He manages to free his hand, his chain key goes floating up into
the air/atmosphere in weightlessness. He grabs for it. We see it floating
in slo-mo, it is in the shape of a snowflake. He frees himself from the
gelatine and tear thru the webbing and goes out in pursuit of the key.
He has trouble moving around in weightless condition, he is on an umbilical
like cord, quite long and he spirals down, when he tries to move over he
crashes over into another small human sized chamber which he accidentally
rips open when he crashes into it, to reveal a partially evisecerated
human inside of it, in alarm he propels him self upward. We see that it
has a light very far off, and there is a long cylendrical chamber completly
honey-combed on the side with those human sized chambers. He floats/propels
himself up until he finds the lip of the chamber where another chamber
branches off of it.

As he pulls himself up into the other chamber, he sees hanging by umbilical
like cords, the Greys that look quite like those depicted on the cover of
the book Communion, they appear to have webbed 3-fingered hands. He has by
now divested himself of the umbilical cord he had. He floats up to the
"Greys" and as he gets closer he gasps: "Space Suits" he goes to examine what
is inside one of them, as he opens it to look at it, the spacesuited alien
from behind him reaches forward grabs him on the neck and "zaps" him. We
see confused images as he would see, as he is half-dragged, half-levitated
off. Then we see him being dragged/levitated. We see the chamber he is
being dragged thru. It is full of the flotsam of cast-off human possesions,
old, I want to say cobwebbed, encrusted and dirty, things like Tennis Shoes
and glasses. In fact the last thing we see in this sequence is a pair of
dirty horn-rimmed glasses that have one cracked lens that go floating up
into the air in eerie slo-mo.

With this sequence begins a lot of what I find questionable about the
movie. It looks too much like a horror/science-fiction movie at this
point. This sequence matches neither most UFO encounters, nor anything
I can even remotely remember being depicted in Walton's book. It is
like ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) had a bunch of horror-movie sets
for "slimy insect-terror" movies and put together things from that.
All the gooey things are sort of out of place. So are the cobwebby,
organic, dirty things like all those cast off human possesions. This
just doesn't match reported UFO interiors, which may be horrifying but
are horrifying because they are bare, sparse and clinical. Such interiors
are sort of reported as being painfully clean, and very much not like
a deserted old house. As far as I know eviscerated humans do not play
a part in imagery either. Now this stuff actually prove of use anyhow.
If suddenly we start finding a whole set of new experiences that sort
of match the movie, we might begin to suspect there has been image
contamination, of people picking up images from movies.

This is what points to the salient points as far as I can tell of
the weirdness of UFO experiences. Most of the cases don't seem to
match horror-movie or science-fiction movie scenarios, unless all
of the sudden the Hollywood Sceince-Fiction-Movie apparatus were
suddenly seized by a bunch of absurdist or surrealist movie makers
hell-bent on having too much fun. Even most cases of schizophrenia
don't manifest in this way. Schizophrenics may have alien and UFO
images but it is often mixed with a whole wealth of equally bizarre
images. Even clinically paranoid people have overarching fear of
everything and try to tie everything into their fantasies, whereas
UFO witnesses most often have fears clearly associated with certain
events and images, and are otherwise reasonably sane.

At this point in the movie, we get a whole bunch of human interest
and Travis meeting his friends etc. until during a "Welcome Back
Travis" party he freaks out and we get to see the second "on-board"
sequence. Note at this point a lot of human interest stuff has gone on.

During this next onboard sequence, Travis is thown up upon an
operating table sort of affair. He is covered with a wet white
cloth soaked with something that seals him in. He freaks and
has trouble breathing, the aliens take a scapel, from a bowl
with water in an environment that looks too dirty to be an
operating room, it looks closer to how my kitchen used to look
on a bad day. :) The aliens jam a mass of red gelatin down his
throat with what look initially to being a screw and nut coming
out of it. They also center his eye in a metal thing that sort
of clamps approximately over his orbit. At this point a bunch
of equipment descends from the ceiling and part of the "infernal
apparatus" plugs into what is now see as that gelatin with hollow
metal spike sticking out of the gelatin that blocks his mouth
open. Then of course there is the thing we can only assume bores
into his head some distance entering near the juncture of
the orbit of his eye and nose. Whatever all this is for we are
left to guess. It looks like an oral,otic,maxillofocal etc. surgery
nightmare. In fact I got a kick out of the fact that the apparatus
looked like those oragno-metalloid things that H.R. Giger likes
and are on the cover of the old ELP album "Brain Salad Surgery".
The sequence ends with a long shot of Travis on the Alien Operating
Table and "snow" falling down from the ceiling on all of them.
Did ILM have an over supply of movie snow left from those old
Starwars movie!

Anyway this section to further sort of cement the strange spin and
interpretation that is found in this movie. It is like the like the
screenwriter, director and ILM got together and made-up out of whole
cloth what they thought a UFO abductee >should< experience inside
a craft.

Anyway it is anti-climax from here, it is implied that Travis wakes
up from his latest freak-out in a doctors care. He then goes off,
and at the end of the film drives off to see Mike, who now lives
near the old logging area. Mike is older and more somber and instead
of looking like Travis does (unchanged) Mike has long hair spilling
down onto his shoulders. They go out to the site where the encounter
occured. They renew their friendship, Mike askes whether he is worried
about "them" coming back. Travis says he is sure them won't be back
as "I don't think they like me." The closing credits roll.

Overall noises about this movie is that it is probably a must see
only for people into UFO studies, who are willing to sit thru a lot
of setup and apparent filler. It does do a few things right, like
getting how "keying images" will make forgotten events come back,
and it does depict the amnesia of UFO experiences the fragile thing
that it is, rather than the very durable thing that many UFO investigators
feel it. Even people who should know better like Jacque Vallee still
believe that humans can cause 100% perfect unbreakable amnesia, from
the drugs that are available to any doctor. Hard to believe. The
rest of the movie matches neither most common UFO experiences, nor
the particular things that Travis Walton claims to have experienced
including "Blond Humans" who were large, hunky, silent and responsive
when he tried to talk or communicate with them.

To wind up this already over long article with a weird spin of my own,
I will perhaps mention that the sequences inside of the craft resemble
nothing so much as a nightmare with its spooky internal atmosphere, or
even more interesting, an intense and rather bad DMT (DimethylTryptamine)
trip. I knew a sci-fi screenwriter who did this once at his home in
Santa Monica and had this horribly lucid set of images of hideous
monsters emerging from the ocean intent upon doing infernal things to him.
Maybe the producers went in for "beer and buttons" as somewhat said
rural Arizonans did in the mid-1970s. But as I mentioned before, this
seem like the imagery once would have on a heavy DMT trip. So a curious
movie, which I conditionally reccomend to the dedicated and the curious.


            Have Fun,
            Sends Steve

[e-mail]

"We are the moles,
 we stay in our holes,
 hiding our faces,
 revealing our souls."

---The moles




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From: [e-mail] (John Walsh)
Subject: Re: RADIO WAVES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 10:27:52 GMT
Lines: 32

[e-mail] (glenn durden) writes:

>[e-mail] (John Walsh) writes:

>> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> >>HELLO EARTHBEINGS.
>> >> [stuff deleted]
>> >>MY NAME IS BILLY I HEAR RADIO WAVES IN MY HEAD.
>> >>
>> >>MY FAVOURITE STATION IS ATLANTIC 252 AS I CAN GET A CRYSTAL CLEAR RECEPTION
>>
>> >Um... I don't know if this will scare you... but there is no ATLANTIC 252
>> >listed in the station master directory I have by my terminal.  Nothing even

>> Um... I don't know if this will scare you... but there IS an  ATLANTIC 252.

>Um... I don't know if this will bore you... but the line "My name is Billy...
>I hear radio waves in my head."   Is from a record by Roger Waters.
>Radio Kaos.     Little digitised voice rings up a radio DJ and introduces
>himself.     I suspect mcsdc1rs@dct has a copy of this.

>.........................................................
>glenn durden
>[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
>The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.

        Yep, that does bore me.


                    zed
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!charnel!rat!zeus!news
From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 10:36:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (The Watcher) writes:
>I have noticed that a great many of you people would like to meet these little
>gray aliens.  Bad move.  These little fuckers are ruthless and the closest
>things to devils made with flesh.  They don't know love or compassion; they
>think of you as animals, not equals.  The only emotion these fuckers feel is
>fear and I intend on making them afraid every chance I get.  You can hang out
>with them if you want, but don't try to reason with them.  You can't reason
>with creatures that think you're an animal.  Me I plan on killing them at my
>every opertunity.  If I can I will Murder them as a race.
>                            The Watcher.

That sounds rather genocidal and extreme, don't you Watcher?  I am not saying
the 'Grays' are not malign... I have enough evidence in my own mind from
people I've talked to, things I've read, conclusions I've drawn, that the
Grays are indeed malicious (and, for all their psi powers and technology,
rather stupid), and definitely need to be shown that human beings are not
to be f***ed with, as a group.  However, I don't think killing them en masse
is really the solution (if indeed you could).  If they can't be reasoned
with, give them a good excuse not to come here.  I for one think that modern
day technology is not the answer here.  I think more 'subtle' methods of
mind energies are called for.  I'd think that a hundred good psychics could
rid this planet of their menace if they could only work together on it.
By the very fact that they are vicious and very afraid, we have an edge on
them.  In any mind-to-mind combat, I think they would crumble like a
McDonalds taekout-bag to any experienced esper.  Even untrained people with
strong wills would give them trouble, and that matches with my researches.
Killing them is bad - all actions return to sender, so you'd just be
carrying out their destiny, but what happens to you down the road?   Bad
karma.  But if you say, I respect your right to live and function, even
though you don't respect mine to do so, but I will prevent you from bringing
harm to my fellow mankind.  This good attitude would probably free up the
resources to allow you to do exactly that.

                    - Richard Temps
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From: [e-mail] (Keijo Virta)
Subject: alien
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Uutis Ankka)
Organization: Institute of Biotechnology (Univ. Helsinki)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 12:54:52 GMT
Lines: 8

     Yeah,that's a solution.Be a nice guy ultil they are close
     and then blow them up and put 6 feet under.
     Well,think a little(if you can).They can teach us something
     and they could be friends.
     But,if you blow then first and ask later,what would they
     think of humans,huh.
     Think that!!!!!!
                                      PIXY
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From: [e-mail] (Mad Dog)
Subject: Circle of Fire
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 02:29:59 GMT
Lines: 18

Recently appeared in alt.alien-vistiors

>Subject: The UFO And The Pharaoh.
>  Some people think that most of the sightings of UFOs started about 1947 but
>I believe you will find that they have been happening throughout our
>history. Here is some information about UFOs and the past;....An Egyptian
>pharaoh observed a huge fleet of UFOs hovering above the desert sands more
>than 3,400 years ago - and even went for a joyride on one of the spacecraft!
>  Incredibly, translations of hieroglyphic records reveal that Thutmose III,
>who reigned 15 centuries before the birth of Christ, first saw a UFO one
>winter morning around the year 1482 b.C.
>   "The hieroglyphics describe the UFO as a circle of fire," said renowned
>author and UFO expert Brad Steiger.  "The object emitted no sound, as
>indicated by the inscription 'it had no voiec.'
  <rest deleted>

--
Email [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
Date: 16 Mar 1993 15:28:30 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu



In a previous article, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) says:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mr J L Saunders) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[other contributor's names deleted.  No, I lied, actually I just followed up
 one of the articles randomly and I don't know any of the other names.  I'm
 so ashamed.]

Please stop this thread.  I'm afraid it might get bigger than the Bigfootf
Spaceman thread thus dashing the dreams of millions of tiny bedridded kibology
readers with cold water.  Please followup the Bigfootf Spaceman thread instead.
A little boy dying of cancer has a last wish to see the Bigfootf Spaceman
thread grow so large that it causes the Internet to collapse, throwing
thousands of companies into bankruptcy in vengeance for the nonexistent health
standards for the plastic used in a G.I. Joe doll which doesn't have a label
which clearly states that the consumer should not gnaw the right leg off.
The Bigfootf Spaceman thread has brought good fortune to millions.  A man
posted a followup to the Bigfootf Spaceman thread and John_-_Winston sent
him a personalized GIF.  A woman posted a followup to the Bigfootf Spaceman
thread and was instantly killed in a car accident thus avoiding the minions
of the collection service who were trying to reposess her Dillard's charge
card.  A man did not followup the Bigfootf Spaceman thread and Rob Dobson
sent him nasty e-mail and then he stabbed himself in the back with a wok.
Spot couldn't type and then a large straight razor with the voice of James
Earl Jones appeared in front of him and carved a harelip in his fuzzy muzzle
and he ran in circles crying

Mark

Spot is a registered trademark of Kibo, even though he's just a dog.  Spot,
that is.
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 15:31:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar) writes:
>Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:

>:   The bottom line remains that whatever the phenomenon is that's
>:   going on here there is no evidence that it's not strictly
>:   inside the head of the alleged "abductee".

>Actually, if you have been watching the FOX tv program Sightings, you would
>have noted that one of those persons who had an artifact left in his body
>had it removed.  Not to say, of course, that he wasn't faking it.

  And that IS they key, isn't it?   Where is this "artifact" now?
  You don't know?   Gee, what a surprise!

  That's how all these things turn out.   There have been several
  claims of abductees having had artifacts inserted which were
  later removed by doctors.   But no one can tell us what ever
  became of these artifacts, or what a laboratory analysis of the
  artifacts revealed, or what the laboratory was that did the
  analysis.    If doctors were finding strange, surgically implanted
  artifacts in patients' bodies this would get published in the
  medical journals.   The UFO-hypothesis wouldn't enter into it, so
  it wouldn't prevent such publication - finding strange artifacts
  in people's bodies is MEDICALLY interesting!   That the patient
  believed it was put their by aliens would be just a footnote.
  So the bottom line remains the same.   Some "abductees" CLAIM
  to have had artifacts inserted into them but the evidence for
  this is scant.


---peter





Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!infonode!ingr!dazixcon!suneyes!cgyoung
From: [e-mail] (Greg Young)
Subject: Re: Cow Mutilations
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: cgyoung@suneyes (Greg Young)
Nntp-Posting-Host: suneyes
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 00:29:27 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Heidi Vogel) writes:
|>     My brother went to Unerversity of North Dakota, Grand Forks.
|> Their past-time was cow-tipping. You know, cows sometimes sleep
|> standing up and you can walk right up to them and push them over.
|> I think it's picking on poor stupid animals myself but I have
|> to grin at the sight.
|>     Just a humorous look at "exactly how do you dissect a 1500lb bull in a farmer's pasture without getting your ass shot off or even being noticed"(GREG).
|>
|>                 ^^^^^^^BLONDIE

Yes, people do sometimes get away with pranks. They sometimes even get away
with murder. However, whomever (or whatever) is responsible has been extremely
prolific these past 20 years. I too have spent a great deal of time around
farms, ranches and animals. Based on my experience, I simply can not accept
that hundred's of animal owners have had the proverbial wool placed over
their eyes by people with the means of college students. Further, I am not
willing to accept that "classic" mutilations are the result of people using
technology in the public domain.

My opinions on the matter are currently with the "symbolic" camp. I think that Vallee is on to something in pointing out that mutilations are symbolic.

Greg Young
Boulder, Colorado

P.S

Here is my quote for the day, hope I get it right.

"You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all
of the people all of the time." - P.T. Barnum

Ok..I can see it coming now, readying the flame proof suite.
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: UFO Operation.
Date: 16 Mar 1993 15:52:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
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In a previous article, [e-mail] () says:
>JW Sometimes the treatment you get by your fellow human beings is worse than
>the treatment you get from the space people abducting you.

quote of the YEAR

and right after the "Well I never."

i am going to die oh godogod
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From: [e-mail] (The President ONLY knows what they tell him!)
Subject: Re: UFO Convention Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 40
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 15:38:01 GMT


--
>  The way Sri Donato sees it,  "The alien Harvesters are violating Divine Law
>by taking your God-given Free Will away from you.  They give you no choice.
>They take your body, insert implants which tag you for the rest of your
>life.  they stun your mind, wipe out your memory of time and space, and drop
>you back with the mutilated cattle-only you mutilation is in the form of
>confusion, nightmares, fears and phobias, leaving you feeling helpless.  The
>'Harvesters' are the ultimate thieves-they are a dark, demonic invasion.
>They are aliens who have no respect or reverence for you body, your mind, or
>your divine spirtit."

Boy if this is not the "pot calling the kettle black"! Humans do this all the
time to lifeforms considered "lower" than us. We hunt down animals - scareing
them half to death - tranquilize them after they see us, perform all kinds of
grizzly experiments, then tag them with a transmitter for life. And even worse
we leave our smell on them which may cause the animal to be rejected by it's
own kind. And need I even say anything about our animal lab studys? We are
talking about things here that would scare the "you know what" out of any
human at the mere thought of these things being done to them.

Why do humans do this? Because they CAN. They have the technical abilities
over their abductees. Sound familiar?

So what is the difference? I'm not justifying either treatment (The aliens
toward us or us toward animals) - I'm just saying that this woman's
viewpoint is very hypocritcal.

Why is what they are doing any different than what we do AND what if we had
their technology? Would we be any different? I do not have enough confidence
in "people" in general to believe that we would no do the same things.

Marty

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 [e-mail]|"Could you please continue the petty bickering?
        Marty Henderson        |   I find it most intriguing."   ---    Data,
    Woodland Park, Colorado    |    Star Trek, The Next Generation, "Haven"
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!rw7.urc.tue.nl!wsadjw
From: [e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 16:44:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
#
#     Here is something for everyone to think about.  There are U.F.O.
#phenomenon, and there are unexplained psychic phenomenon, and there
#are things like life after death, et cetera.
#
#     Has anyone ever thought that perhaps we can *never* explain them,
#or that currently there is *no way* to explain them, or to make the
#truth known.

This problem his been given a lot of thought. Here are my thoughts.
(1) You don't get anywhere with "perhaps we can never explain".
    I just threw a coin and it landed heads.  No one will ever explain
    why that coin on that moment landed heads and not tails.

(2) However "falling coins" are a phenomenon.  The experiment can be
    repeated.  The observations can be done carefully. Even if one
    incident cannot be predicted, the statistics of the phenomenon can
    be studied, and they seem to follow from quite plausible assumptions
    on the manner in which the coin is thrown and its symmetrical shape.

(3) The very first thing you must do is establish that there is a
    phenomenon, and you also have to establish its nature.
    UFO:  naturally many people will every now and then see something
    in the sky they can't explain.  An important aspect is here
    several psychological `facts':  if inexperienced observers start
    looking at the sky, they'll see things they didn't know were
    there; about 2 to 5 percent of the population have such a vivid
    imagination that they honestly remember much more than there actually
    was to see;  there are also pranksters and fakers around;  what
    applies to the sky, applies to the mind as well: all kinds of
    nightmares, hallucinations are more more common than people think.

    Psychic phenomena: important is to establish that there are really
    `phenomena':  things that happen in a certain pattern, and are not
    the product of the fertile human mind.

    Life after death:  many people have given this a lot of thought.
    As you know, many religious systems hold that after a person dies
    there still remains something mostly immaterial.  The problem is
    whether this immaterial principle can still communicate in some way
    with the living, if only by letting things or thoughts or dreams
    happen.  Generally the evidence for this is very unconvincing.
>

>     Perhaps using our perception and comprehension, we cannot understand
>the propulsion of U.F.O.'s and cannot understand why ghosts are there,
>and cannot understand how psychokinesis and extrasensory perception works.


Let's first establish unequivocally that there are phenomena.
Before we despair at understanding the propulsion of UFOs (which
seems to violate known physical laws on a grand scale), lets first
catch one, and then I don't mean a vague blur on a radar screen or
on a photograph of unclear provenance.  Meanwhile the propagation
of tall stories can be studied!
Same for ghosts, PK and ESP.
Currently the best evidence for PK seems to be that the mind in at least
one case managed to screw up a physical random generators a little itty
bit, and the best evidence for ESP is a complicated series of ganzfeld
experiments in which still photographs could not be `transmitted' but
moving pictures somewhat better than chance.

The "phenomenon" hasn't reached the stage yet that there is a recipe
for an experiment that has over and over again shown to be able to
reproduce the experiment in the hands of whoever gives it a serious
try (like all the experiments undergraduate science students are assigned
to do).

JWN
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Paul L. White)
Subject: Fire In The Sky
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Administrator)
Organization: Raytheon Company
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 13:53:09 GMT
Lines: 74

I saw this movie last night.

The first 20 minutes of the film has the feel of a made-for-tv movie.  The
viewer learns the background of Travis Walton and his best friend/boss Mike.
Travis gets zapped by the alien craft and the movie focusses on Mike and the
rest of his timber crew as suspects in the subsequent murder investigation. Jim
Garner plays the Criminal Investigation Department agent investigating the
disappearance of Walton.  Mike puts up a valiant defense of himself and his
crew in the face of the town's accusations, the media blitz, and the suspicions
of the police.  The screenplay uses the lie-detector scenes to blunt some
of Phillip Klass' debunking accusations e.g., that the whole thing was staged
to get out of the logging contract.  (Also, my understanding was that
the National Enquirer brought in the lie detector and not the law enforcement
personnel as depicted in the film).

Only when Travis Walton returns does the viewer get his point of view on the
abduction.  Walton is severely traumatized by his experience and blames Mike
for leaving him in the clearing with the UFO.  Mike blames Travis for running
up to the UFO and getting zapped when they told him to get back in the truck.
They're pissed off at each other.  At a welcome home party Travis
is overwhelmed by the noise and attention and winds up cowering underneath
the kitchen table.  When when syrup from an upset container leaks into his
mouth, the viewer is thrown back into Walton's flashback aboard the craft.

The episode aboard the craft is the highlight of the movie.  Walton wakes in
a womb-like cocoon with (one suspects) a sweet alien goo dripping in his
mouth (thus the syrup as a trigger for the flashback).  Walton tears through
the claustrophobic womb membrane into a long tunnel with many cells with
membrane covers.  The tunnel has no gravity.  The no-gravity was a good
special effect and very convincing...one wonders how they did it.  Travis
during his weightless gyrations crashes into a cell with a decomposing
human corpse in it (was this in his book "The Travis Walton Experience"? or
only for entertainment shock value?).  Walton works his way up the
tunnel toward a light and encounters a group of typical grays hanging
weightless by umbilicals.  Walton checks one out and finds that the
gray's appearance is only a space suit...the real alien inside is brown and
wrinkled (one is reminded of the movie 'Communion' when Strieber is quizzing
the alien on what the secret is and the alien gray opens up a mask to
reveal a brown and wrinkled alien underneath).  Travis gets caught by the
ankle as he tries to run away as one of the aliens wake up and makes
a grab for him.  As he is dragged through the ship, we find that the
aliens are extremely poor housekeepers who leave human belongings strewn
throughout their craft.

Walton winds up on the omnipresent alien operating
table where they do unspeakable things to him.  Walton then wakes up
in the psychiatrist's office where concerned family members surround
him.

Two and one half years later, Walton is married with one and a half children.
On his way to work, he decides to make up with his friend, Mike.

Thus endeth the movie.

My guess is that the producers were out of money, couldn't afford any more
special effects and decided not to
tell the rest of Travis' story.  You know, the one where he grabs a
scalpel and jumps off the operating table and chases the aliens away until
they bring a Aryan-looking blond alien to calm him down.  Walton has formerly
told his story with a visit to another planet before he is returned to earth.
Because they didn't tell this part of the story, I felt ripped off.
Therefore, I wreak my revenge by saying that IMHO, wait for this one
to come out in video.

===============================
Paul White
[e-mail]
My opinions do not represent those of my employer
===============================





Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: "Fire in Sky" H'Wood Hype
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 16:01:56 GMT
Lines: 28

Someone asked if the "onboard the ship" stuff in "Fire in the Sky"
was true or Hollywood hype?  It would seem to be the latter, since
it in NO WAY resembles what Travis Walton wrote about his experiences
in his book published in 1978.

All the human interest stuff, his town, his friends, etc. is pretty
authentic. The business about his friends being suspected of murder,
and Travis's dramatic return after five days -- all presumed to be
true.

Why, then, would the film's producers tout it as "based on a true
story", use real people's names, and then take the central and
crucial part of the saga -- the "onboard the ship sequences" -- and
apparantly fabricate it from old left-over horror movie footage?

I, for one, am somewhat disgusted with that. It seems to be dirty
pool to piggyback on the emotional value of a "true story" and then
introduce crap that is completely false.

At least one of the producers,Tracy Torme, is reputed to be a genuine
UFO buff -- so it's all the more surprising, and odious, that the
film was treated in this way.

It's worth seeing, the direction and acting are good. But you may come
away feeling rather cynical.

Lou

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: UFOs negative?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 17:42:57 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: I believe you will find that Jeff is telling you the truth.
> The Greys were allowed to come here with the help of the good type
> space people so that they can innerbreed with us and come up with a new
> better civilization. The Greys are total logic, we are very emotional,
> mixed the two and you get a better civilization.
> John Winston.

Hello John,

You make three statements in your post :

    1. The Greys come here with the help of good type space people

    2. The Greys interbreed with humans

    3. The Greys are totally logical

Can you expand on any of these points and prefably quote some references so
I can follow up your points further.  I am familiar with the work of Budd
Hopkins and David Jacobs in the second area, but can you add other information.

I am particularly interested in the evidence for the third statement.

Thanks,
Steve
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!mozzarella.cs.wisc.edu!cherkaue
From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Subject: HERE IS THE FAQ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 18:01:02 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
>You seem to have missed my point.  There is no FAQ that I am aware of
>for this group.  The only question I hear asked frquently is how to put
>JW in their kill-file.

Just because you are not aware of it doesn't mean there isn't one. In the past
an FAQ was posted quite regularly. Probably the person who was posting it got
sick of doing the maintenance.

--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Subject: Re: PLEASE POST THE FAQ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 18:05:41 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman) writes:
>You seem to have missed my point.  There is no FAQ that I am aware of
>for this group.  The only question I hear asked frquently is how to put
>JW in their kill-file.

Just because you are not aware of it does not mean it does not exist. In the
past an a.a.v. FAQ was posted quite regularly. Probably the person posting it
got sick of doing the maintenance.

By the way, to put John_-_Winston in your kill file, simply do a control-K
while reading a.a.v. (to edit your kill file for the group), then add the line

/Winston/h:j

This junks any article where Winston's name appears in the header.

--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!ee.rochester.edu!moscom!mz
From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO base in Lake Ontario?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 17:20:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
Lines: 20
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Well, enough about the Edmund Fitzgerald.

I live in Rochester, NY about 3 miles from Lake Ontario.  I know a local
UFO researcher who has told me about several sightings over Lake Ontario.
Some of the sightings have occurred near the Ginna Nuclear Power Plant
(for those who don't remeber, that is the plant that sprung a leak in
a steam generator tube in I believe 1982 and made the national news).
Apparently, there have been sightings around one other Nuke plant near
Oswego, NY.

As to a base, there has been at least one report of a sighting where a UFO
was seen coming out of the water in Lake Ontario.  But don't get your
hopes up.  There are no photos or video tapes.

Matthew Zenkar
[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!ccvax.ucd.ie!h235_041
From: [e-mail] (HI)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Blue book!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 17:56:32 WET
Organization: University College Dublin
Lines: 6



I am an alien visitor and I have proof.  Mail me if you don't believe me.
ps. Want to buy a model of Picards pet chicken?


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: UFOs negative?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 19:28:02 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> Dear Folks: I believe you will find that Jeff is telling you the truth.
>> The Greys were allowed to come here with the help of the good type
>> space people so that they can innerbreed with us and come up with a new
>> better civilization. The Greys are total logic, we are very emotional,
>> mixed the two and you get a better civilization.
>> John Winston.
>
>Hello John,
>
>You make three statements in your post :
>
>    1. The Greys come here with the help of good type space people
>
>    2. The Greys interbreed with humans
>
>    3. The Greys are totally logical
>
>Can you expand on any of these points and prefably quote some references so
>I can follow up your points further.  I am familiar with the work of Budd
>Hopkins and David Jacobs in the second area, but can you add other information.

I have already provided two references for advanced information on the greys:
Here they are AGAIN, and some others too:

The Prism of Lyra - Lisa Royale
Visitors from Within - Lisa Royale
Matrix II - Val Valarian
UFO's: Six Viewpoints - Michael Lindemann - read the article on Don Ware especially, he is a MUFON director in the SE of the US.

MANY! MANY others too numerous to mention... go to a book store that carries
these and look about!

Jeff-


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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 06:20:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Voters: I see by the information that Don Allen posts to the Net
that Sananda has been replaced by Ashtar as the spokesperson for the
planet Earth  for The Confederation of Planets. Boy if Kibo hears
about this is he going to be mad.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14433 alt.alien.visitors:14495
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 06:30:25 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I thought that by now Blondie would have told us a
Blond joke. I guess I was wrong.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14434 alt.alien.visitors:14496 alt.religion.kibology:7411
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Statement.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 06:36:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear One and All: Did you hear the rumor that Kibo has been replaced
by Ashtar. I didn't even get to vote.
John Winston.l
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!csc32.enet.dec.com!m_henderson
From: [e-mail] (The President ONLY knows what they tell him!)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Review w/spoilers Fire in the Sky
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Mar 93 16:14:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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--
re: Steve's review of the Movie "Fire in the Sky".

Thank you for your reply to my question. I got what I was looking for. The
movie is quite good and will provide a good evening of entertainment. The
"Alien surgery scene" is contrived. I thought so.\

Thanks,

Marty
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 [e-mail]|"Could you please continue the petty bickering?
        Marty Henderson        |   I find it most intriguing."   ---    Data,
    Woodland Park, Colorado    |    Star Trek, The Next Generation, "Haven"
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Are Dolphins Space People?
Date: 16 Mar 93 17:16:59
Organization: BBN, Cambridge MA
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    <[e-mail]>
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Sun, 14 Mar 93 08:10:41 PST

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   Subject: Dolphins.
     There is a lady out there who knows Kumar who wants to get pregnant so I
   hope you get to read the following information;...A pack of dolphin doctors
   are making sterile women pregnant at an oceanside clinic where fertility
   experts say the process offers fantistic hope for many other anxious
   females.

Hmm, looks like the Starry Wisdom cult from Innsmouth is making a
comeback.
--
-30-
Bob Ingria

``Glub, glub, glub.'' --- Sandra Gilbert
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From: [e-mail] (Wm. J. LePetomaine)
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 21:49:32 GMT


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mr J L Saunders) writes:
|>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|>%In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
|>%>[e-mail] wrote:
|>%>: Dear Folks: I was Jewish about many lifetimes ago.
|>%>: John Winston
|>%>
|>%>I had a broken leg a few years back..
|>%
|>%I had a Jewish girlfriend who broke her ankle.  Has anyone else slept with
|>%someone Jewish who broke a bone, or knows someone who has?
|>
|>I'm Jewish, and I once broke the metacarpal leading from my right little
|>finger (on a bedpost!) - I never slept with anyone in that bed, though...

I'm not Jewish (at least not in this lifetime) but I did break my left Great
toe when I was 18. I was on crutches for FIVE WEEKS! (Awwwww!) Slept with
nobody back then.
--
Bill

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 12:10:42 GMT
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Quoting [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache') in article <[e-mail]>:
>I'll have to look this up in the historical record. But I do believe
>that some educated and expert people did say: "Never" and didn't grace
>it with "with current technology" so it will have to stand as the original
>poster stated it. It is a little bit unkind to call it "utter bullshit."
>Better to point out that, in the case of most things when experts said:
>"x will not be done" they are much more often right than wrong.

We need a record of lots of scientists saying "This cannot be done" and
being right.  Unfortunately, the statement "This cannot be done" is open
to disproof, whereas "This will be possible *someday*" isn't; this means
that even if they said it was impossible a hundred years ago and they
look more right now than ever, it doesn't necessarily mean they're
vindicated...
  __                                  _____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley   [e-mail] \\ //
/\__/ Trust me. I know what I'm doing. \X/  Fold a fish for Jesus!
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 12:08:15 GMT
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Quoting [e-mail] (Brian Merkel) in article <[e-mail]>:
>>Where is the Philosopher's Stone?

>    Oh, I've got it. I though everybody knew. Sorry. Well, if you
>    really need it, I'm sure something can be arranged.

Can you make it available for ftp?
  __                                  _____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley   [e-mail] \\ //
/\__/ Trust me. I know what I'm doing. \X/  Fold a fish for Jesus!
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Dinse)
Subject: Re: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Asteroid Belt
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 07:50:57 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Ones of Great Wisdom: I should have said be sure and wear asbostos
> unmentionables. I believe you will find that man did destroy a planet
> now called the Meteorite Belt by atomic bombs. They called the planet
> Maldek.
> John Winston


     Ya know John, I used to wonder about that..  That is >IF< there was once
a planet there that somehow got destroyed, or not.

     I posed that question in another group some time ago, and someone who
knows about these cosmological things, understands the physics and all that,
told me no, there was never a planet there, nor could there be with Jupiter
where it is.

     As it was explained to me, and it's been a while so I may be a bit fuzzy
on this, but Jupiter has a perturbing effect upon the orbits of the asteroids
that prevented them from forming a planet in the first place, and that IF there
had been a planet there, and it was blown up, and Jupiter wasn't there to
perturb the orbits of the pieces, it would reform.

     I don't understand the physics well enough to do the math and determine
if that in fact is the case, and actually I don't have a lot of faith that
anybody knows enough about the total quantity and make-up of the asteroids in
the asteroid belt, including all the dust and small asteroids that we can't
image, to really absolutely make that determination, btu that's what I've been
told.

     It would take one hell of a nuclear weapon to blow up a whole planet.
I've wondered if one could turn jupiter into a giant hydrogen bomb (or one of
the other gas giants).

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From: [e-mail] (Miss J A Cunningham)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 15:15:32 GMT
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<[e-mail]>
Xref: warwick talk.religion.newage:11542 alt.alien.visitors:13845 alt.religion.kibology:6725

RE: Planet between Jupiter and Mars
Just to affirm that I also understand it as a planet that
failed to form due to the high gravity of Jupiter

Lorinda - "They'll get me in the end."
.
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From: [e-mail] ([e-mail])
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Animal Mutilations
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 10:27:55 +0000
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>  > (3) If the culprits are "aliens", why do they need so much material?
>  >     Again, is the purpose to spread fear/confusion?
>
> Again, this is a good point.  So, what does that leave us with?  I
> suggest that we are dealing with some type of psychological warfare or
> strategy thing as the cause of the animal mutilations.  But, what would
> they hope to accomplish and why?  We know from war-time literature that
> it was a common thing for the special forces to use religious myth as a
> means to scare the enemy.  Is this what may be going on in a similar
> way with animal mutilations? One can only speculate.

My suggestion is that they might not even care about remnants, or it might
not be a matter of concern.  Think about what we do when we evaluate animal
populations-we move in, trank 'em, take samples, put radio monitors on them
to follow the herd disposition, and assume that any trauma to the animal is
temporary.

ST




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From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: 1992 NAICCR Crop Circle Report
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: crop circle report available
Keywords: crop circles, UGMs, NAICCR
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Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 16:12:43 GMT
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Thanks to David Thacker of AUFOSG, the 1992 NAICCR Report on Crop
Circles and UGMs in North America has been scanned in and is hereby
made available online:

From [e-mail] Sun Mar 21 21:52:27 1993
Date: 21 Mar 93 22:42:57 EST
From: David Thacker <[e-mail]>
Subject: 1992 NAICCR UGM Report




                                   _____
                                 -       -
                               **         **
                            ===================




                               NORTH AMERICAN
                                CROP CIRCLES
                                    and
                          RELATED PHYSICAL TRACES
                              REPORTED IN 1992



             A Study Conducted by the North American Institute
                          for Crop Circle Research


                             Winnipeg, Manitoba
                                   Canada


                              February, 1993
  This study was conducted by the North American Institute for Crop Circle
    Research in conjunction with Ufology Research of Manitoba.  Research
                 associates with NAICCR and UFOROM include:

                  Roy Bauer, Grant Cameron, Jeff Harland,
             Chris Rutkowski, Vladimir Simosko and Guy Westcott


         =========================================================

     Thanks are due to the following people who significantly assisted
                          NAICCR in its research:

                    Chad Deetken, Rosemary Ellen Guiley,
                  Gordon Kijek, Colin McKim, Ted Spickler,
            Michael Strainic, David Thacker and Pamela Thompson


         =========================================================

                   Contributing groups and organizations:


             North American Institute for Crop Circle Research
        649 Silverstone Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  R3T 2V8

                        Ufology Research of Manitoba
               Box 1918, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  R3C 3R2

                          Alberta UFO Study Group
 P.O. Box 38044, Capilano Postal Outlet, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  T6A 0Y0

               Center for North American Crop Circle Studies
             P.O. Box 4766, Lutherville, Maryland  21094   USA

                              Pacific Research
            2743 West 6th Avenue, Vancouver, BC, Canada  V6K 1W9

                             Mutual UFO Network
             103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas  78155-4099  USA


         =========================================================

 Thanks are due to those who sent information to NAICCR for the purposes of
         this study. Their contributions were greatly appreciated.


               This report was prepared by Chris A. Rutkowski

                               Published by:

             North American Institute for Crop Circle Research
                            in conjunction with
                        Ufology Research of Manitoba

                        North American Crop Circles
                        and Related Physical Traces
                              Reported in 1992

     Since 1990, NAICCR (North American Institute for Crop Circle Research)
has been requesting and collecting information on UGMs (unusual ground
markings) in North America. The 1990 and 1991 NAICCR reports were widely
circulated, and have been reprinted in a number of books and publications
around the world.  The favourable response of the ufology and cerealogical
community to NAICCR's efforts has encouraged the continued gathering of
data for comparison and analysis.

     One of the reasons NAICCR has been making UGM and crop circle data
available to researchers is because no comparable reports are produced
regarding UGMs in Britain. Various factions and cerealogists are said to
maintain extensive databases on crop circles, but the data is normally not
disseminated.  True, several coffee-table books have been published with
remarkable aerial photographs of unique formations, and cerealogy
"alphabets" have been circulated which categorize the agriglyphs, but raw
data including all possibly relevant parameters is hard to come by.  In
addition, there is the alleged "hoarding" of crop circle data by some
researchers, and the selective winnowing of cases by others.

     Since British data has been so elusive to some researchers, NAICCR
associates have attempted to gather UGM data from the entire continent of
North America, rather than focusing upon the British scene.  This has been
no small feat.  The effective area of North American cerealogy is several
times larger than that of Britain, so North American cerealogists have a
much more difficult task than their counterparts across the ocean.
"Stakeouts" of circle-prone areas are possible in England, but not in
America.

     The principle which guides the collection and dissemination of crop
circle data by NAICCR is the open exchange of information for all those
involved in the field.  It has been suggested that the sharing of
information and the co-operation between researchers is a vital aspect of
both ufology and cerealogy.

     In practice, although requests for information are frequently made,
relatively few researchers and investigators respond by sending NAICCR the
required data.  Typically, local investigators send information to regional
directors of their organizations, if they send their information to anyone
at all.  The quality and style of investigations tend to vary considerably,
and therefore make comparative studies very difficult.  The need for
standardization of investigative techniques is clearly an issue in UGM
studies.

     As a result, information about many UGMs comes by way of second-hand
sources, newsletters, magazines, computer bulletin boards and media
reports.  Some reports of UGMs are nothing more than rumours, despite
attempts to substantiate claims and alleged witnesses' accounts.  For these
reasons, the usefulness of the data is limited.  However, it is the
position of NAICCR that the collection and publication of this data are
important in the development of the field.  At the very least, researchers
who perhaps read only a few publications can be apprised of the broader
aspect of the phenomena, and the variety of the cases.

     While it is admirable that many researchers have taken it upon
themselves to study specific cases or aspects of UGMs, those who claim
expertise or are portrayed as being very knowledgeable of the subject are
sometimes poorly versed in the phenomenon.  Indeed, some lack the necessary
background to speak with authority on UGMs or related phenomena.  This has
resulted in some "experts" making unscientific or otherwise unsupported
claims during media interviews, contributing to misconceptions about the
facts of the phenomenon.

     The situation is complicated further by the delineation of "camps"
within the UGM field, whether they be vortex theorists, UFO adherents,
skeptical refuseniks or ultraterrestrialists.  These are additional reasons
why an objective presentation of all the raw data from all sources is
considered essential in order to gain a more complete understanding of the
phenomena.  It is the hope of NAICCR that the presentation of North
American UGM data in this Report will encourage more co-operation and
discussion among researchers at all levels, whether the reader is an
armchair theorist, a field investigator or a debunker.

     The general position of NAICCR is that no one theory is favourable
over any other at the present time.  This flies directly against the belief
by many skeptics that "all crop circles are hoaxes", and also the belief by
many ETH supporters that crop circles are definitely communications from
aliens.  The hoax issue is not trivial.  Debates are raging between
cerealogists concerning the fraction of "genuine" formations that have been
found.

     First of all, we must realize that the exact determination of this
fraction is impossible, since we have no exact figure for the number of all
UGMs in Britain.  Are there 1000 recorded sites since 1980?  2000?  3000?
Do the numbers reflect individual UGMs, or complete formations?  Is a site
with ten "grapeshot" circles counted as "ten" or "one"?

     Second, cerealogists have gone on record as saying that hoaxers have
become so proficient at their craft that there is now no way to tell a
"genuine" circle from a "fake" one. The implications of such a statement
should alarm researchers.  If hoaxed circles look "genuine", then all
circles could be hoaxes just as easily as all circles could be "real".

     Third, claims of hoaxing are themselves not proof of hoaxing.
Although skeptics would invoke Ockham's Razor and point out that hoaxing is
the simplest explanation for crop circles, the problem is more complex than
that.  Aside from the Bower/Chorley demonstrations, comparatively few
hoaxers have admitted their handiwork and have described their exact method
used.  This has resulted in many cerealogists adopting a "doubting Thomas"
attitude;  unless hoaxers are caught red-handed or come forward after the
fact with detailed information about their hoax effort, the hoaxers are not
to be believed.

     In North America, though several individuals have claimed to have
hoaxed crop circles, only a few have met the "doubting Thomas" criteria.
The situation is much worse in Britain, given the larger number of sites.
A common observation among cerealogists is that hoaxing cannot be a viable
explanation because thousands of crop circle sites would require huge
armies of hoaxers, all of whom were clever enough to make intricate
formations without being seen, indeed, in some cases, under the watchful
eyes of surveillance cameras.

     But are the logistics of hoaxing really that impossible?  Since many
formations were discovered days or even weeks after they were likely
created, they could have been done without any witnesses.  By the time many
were found, visitors might have trampled tell-tale signs of hoaxing.  We do
not have accurate figures available on the fraction of sites which were
under observation, and which were also investigated prior to visitors.  How
many of the 1000 (or 2000) UGMs are considered highly reliable?

     Let us assume that there is one determined and expert crop circle
hoaxer in Britain. Let us also assume that he (or she) made one crop circle
per night during a 100-day farming season.  This one person could have made
all 1000 circles in Britain since 1980!

     This is absurd, of course.  The time requirements, personal cost,
travelling, secrecy and other factors would make this scenario ridiculous.
But let us assume that the variables were altered.  Suppose there were ten
hoaxers.  Suppose that ten crop circles were made each night.  Suppose that
some circles were created by a mysterious natural or preternatural
phenomenon (!).  The reader is left to speculate upon other scenarios.
This exercise does not, by itself, imply that hoaxing is the most likely
explanation for crop circles.  However, it puts into perspective the
problems of coming to terms with the phenomenon.

     What of the other theories?  What evidence is there to support the
vortex or extraterrestrial theories?  In the former, there do exist several
dozen recorded cases of eyewitnesses to strong, spiralling downdraughts
making circular patches in wheat or tall grasses.  Both Ohtsuki and Meaden
have presented physical arguments that simple crop circles could be made by
wind vortices, and have hypothesized certain physical conditions that might
be conducive to crop circle creation (sides of hills, winds, etc.).
However, given the difficulty of weeding "genuine" circles from the dross
in the data, the theory requires some refining.  In addition, a "natural"
mechanism would demand the creation of formations in great numbers around
the world, not just confined to a small area in Britain.  Perhaps, the
NAICCR reports will serve to support the theory.

     On the other hand, TIF (Theory of the Intelligent Force) seems
supported by eyewitness accounts and videos of unusual lights or structured
objects near crop circle sites. Some vortex theorists might say these are
special cases of plasmas in action, but some TIF proponents insist that
added factors such as weaving and complex patterns rule out a natural
mechanism.

     In terms of physical changes within crop circles, results are
interesting, though not completely satisfying.  Tests have shown no sites
to have residual radioactivity, despite earlier heralded claims to the
contrary.  Spagyrical analyses, dating back to the days of alchemy and not
given much scientific weight today, attempted to show "crystallization" of
plant cells from within crop circles.  This evidence is not as credible as
many would believe.  We are left with the body of evidence produced through
analyses by Dr. W. Levengood of Pinelandia Biophysical Laboratories.  His
results, published in a series of reports, purport to shown "changes" or
otherwise significant abnormalities in samples taken from circle sites.
The prospect of proving abnormalities within crop circles using these
results is very exciting, though it would be preferable if other
independent laboratories could confirm the effects.

Results of the 1992 Study

     As of 31 January, 1993, there had been 93 UGMs (unusual ground
markings) reported or otherwise communicated to UFOROM (Ufology Research of
Manitoba) or NAICCR during the 1992 calendar year.  These represented only
40 different sites or locations; some cases had multiple associated UGMs.
The set of UGMs includes those features commonly called "crop circles" as
well as features known as "saucer nests", "space cookies", "burn marks" and
"landing traces".


     The UGMs were classified in the following categories:

                    1. FC - Flattened Circle
                    2. FR - Flattened Ring
                    3. BC - Burned Circle
                    4. BR - Burned Ring
                    5. BF - Burned and Flattened
                    6. CR - Concentric Ring
                    7. VM - Vegetation Missing
                    8. VD - Vegetation Dead
                    9. YG - Yellowing of Grass
                    10. SG - Stunted Growth
                    11. EG - Enhanced Growth
                    12. DP - Depression
                    13. HO - Hole
                    14. OT - Other

The classification system is not mutually exclusive, and some sites may
contain more than one category of UGM.

     A problem in the statistical tabulation of UGM data is the lack of
standardization in the counting of the UGMs.  At some sites, only a single
UGM is observed, while at others, there may be dozens.  Some researchers
have chosen to count each UGM separately, but many count features according
to sites.  A "quadruplet" may therefore be counted as "4" or "1", depending
on the system used. A more complex feature such as an "agriglyph" poses
additional problems: is a count of its component circles, triangles, etc.,
of real analytical value?  The NAICCR data is presented with both counting
schemes; researchers can adopt their own systems for interpretation.

     It is interesting to note that the number of UGMs per year has
remained about the same since 1990.  This might suggest that UGMs are a
continuing, constant phenomenon like their cousins, UFOs.


                          UGMs per Year
                          =============

               1990            1991            1992
=========================================================
# UGMs  |       86      |       87      |       93      |
# Sites |       45      |       37      |       40      |
=========================================================


                  UGMs in North America in 1992
                  =============================

              Canada      %       USA        %       Total
============================================================
Total UGMs  |   47   |  50.5%  |   46   |  49.5%  |   93   |
# Sites     |   21   |  52.5%  |   19   |  47.5%  |   40   |
============================================================


     Of the 93 total UGMs found in North America, 47 (50.5%) were in Canada
and 46 (49.5%) were in the United States.  When the number of sites is
examined, the distribution is essentially the same: 21 (52.5%) in Canada
and 19 (47.5%) in the United States.  When compared with previous years,
the 1992 data suggests several things.  First, the number of reported UGMs
in North America is constant, averaging around 90 UGMs/year.  Second, it
would appear that the ratio of UGMs/sites is also constant, with a value
near two.  In other words, the typical UGM case involves at least two
impressions/effects, and are more properly called formations.

     If we assume that the mechanism for reporting North American UGM cases
is relatively constant, this data does seem to show a "background" level of
UGM activity, something that had been suspected by some researchers.  More
to the point, it suggests that the huge numbers of crop circle UGMs in
Britain are an anomaly.  Some would read this as a confirmation of
widespread hoaxing and contamination of British UGM data.  To others, this
implies that the British hills and valleys are host to a truly unique
phenomenon, incomparable to UGM activity elsewhere in the world.  Indeed,
the constancy of the American numbers seems to show that American and
British UGM activity, specifically that of crop circles, are different
effects with different causes.  Why this is so is not completely clear at
this time.

     As in previous years, there was an uneven distribution of UGMs
throughout North America in 1992.  Significant numbers of cases were
reported in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, which had few UGMs reported in 1991.
Illinois had the largest number of American cases in 1992, as in previous
years.

     There was a strong, significant difference in the direction of swirl
reported for crop circles.  Of the cases for which swirl data was reported,
28 swirls were counterclockwise, and only one was clockwise.  All swirled
UGMs were in Canada.


          Distribution of UGMs in States and Provinces
          ============================================

State/Province        USA/CDN        # UGMs         # Sites
=================================================================
Alberta         |     Canada    |      18       |       3       |
Arizona         |       USA     |       3       |       1       |
California      |       USA     |       2       |       1       |
Georgia         |       USA     |       2       |       1       |
Illinois        |       USA     |       8       |       4       |
Iowa            |       USA     |       1       |       1       |
Manitoba        |     Canada    |      20       |      11       |
Massachusetts   |       USA     |       1       |       1       |
Minnesota       |       USA     |       2       |       1       |
Missouri        |       USA     |       1       |       1       |
New Hampshire   |       USA     |       1       |       1       |
North Carolina  |       USA     |       1       |       1       |
Ohio            |       USA     |       2       |       2       |
Ontario         |     Canada    |       1       |       1       |
Pennsylvania    |       USA     |      12       |       1       |
Saskatchewan    |     Canada    |       8       |       6       |
South Dakota    |       USA     |       1       |       1       |
Tennesee        |       USA     |       9       |       2       |
=================================================================


               Number of UGMs by Crop and Country
               ==================================

Crop                   USA           Canada
=================================================
Alfalfa         |       5       |               |
Barley          |               |       2       |
Corn            |       1       |       1       |
Grass           |      15       |      11       |
Ice             |       1       |               |
Oats            |               |       3       |
Potatoes        |       1       |               |
Wheat           |      21       |      30       |
=================================================


     The diversity of the crops affected by UGMs is evident in the above
table.  The public impression that crop circles appear exclusively in wheat
is clearly wrong.  Furthermore, the British label of "corn circles" is also
a misnomer for North American cases, though this is due more to idiom than
botany.  Some researchers such as AUFOSG have noted this problem of crop
identification, and have included the proper scientific names of affected
UGM crop in their reports.  If other groups adopt this system, it may
alleviate some confusion.

     The most marked change from 1991 is the increase in wheat formations
in the United States.  There were 21 in 1992, but only 1 in 1991.
Otherwise, UGM activity was as varied as in previous years.


             Number of UGMs by Crop (When Specified)
             =======================================

Crop                 # UGMs
=================================
Alfalfa         |       5       |
Barley          |       2       |
Corn            |       2       |
Grass           |      26       |
Ice             |       1       |
Oats            |       3       |
Potatoes        |       1       |
Wheat           |      51       |
Not Specified   |       2       |
=================================


             Number of UGMs by Type (When Specified)
             =======================================

Type                          USA            Canada
=========================================================
Flattened Circle        |      33       |      15       |
Flattened Ring          |       2       |      20       |
Hole                    |               |       1       |
Vegetation Dead         |       1       |               |
Vegetation Missing      |       1       |               |
Yellowed Grass          |       1       |               |
Other                   |       2       |      11       |
Not Specified           |       6       |               |
=========================================================

In 1992, the average diameter of UGMs was 10.62 metres.  In 1991, the
average diameter of UGMs was 7.06 metres.  The 1990 average was 10.7
metres.

     The "UFO Connection" to UGMs and crop circles alleged by some
researchers is not borne out by the 1992 data.  UFOs were reported in
conjunction with only 4 UGM sites, representing 10% of the cases.  We can
note that Ted Phillips' Catalog of Physical Traces Associated with UFO
Sightings, published in the 1970's, had a similar fraction of cases. Many
of the UGMs listed in his Catalog had no associated UFO activity.  In other
words, the overall characteristics of trace cases and UFO effects have not
changed dramatically over the years; only our identification and naming the
sites as "crop circles" instead of "physical traces" has evolved.

     In 26 UGMs (28%) or at 8 sites (20%), winds were noted as a possible
explanation. As many as 18 UGMs (19%) at 8 sites (20%) were given probable
explanations.  As can be seen in the annotated list of cases, cerealogists
are rapidly gaining expertise in crop effects such as lodging and blights.

     The characteristics of 1992 UGMs varied considerably.  As many as 11
UGMS (12%) at 7 sites (17.5%) were described as possessing "corridors".  No
complex formation such as the Coalhurst structure of 1991 was discovered,
though smaller oddities such as "dumbbells" and "Mars symbols" were noted
in 1992.

     The listing of UGM data does not include any indication of the
investigations and conclusions reached by researchers regarding the cause
or reason for the existence of the features.  The limited information
available for these analyses precluded any extensive discussion of the
individual cases.  Some information about the cases will be found in the
annotated case list later in this report.  Sources of information about the
cases are provided, but researchers intending to use this data in their own
studies are cautioned that NAICCR cannot vouch for the accuracy of reports.

     The question of physical or physiological effects reported at UGM
sites should also be addressed here.  It has been claimed that electronic
interference is sometimes experienced within or in the proximity of British
crop circles.  Convincing support for this claim is much debated, but such
effects have been noted in many cases, usually as an indication that UFOs
have been involved.  Sometimes, vortex theorists imply that these effects
may be related to plasma activity in the surrounding area.

     In both 1991 and 1992, several North American UGM sites were claimed
to have associated effects.  Some sites were said to exhibit a positive
effect when dowsed, while other sites produced eerie "energy", detected by
sensitives.  Unfortunately, these effects do not seem to be consistent, and
are not experienced by all witnesses or investigators at the same site.

     It is hoped that research into UGMs will benefit from studies of the
raw UGM data. Researchers are urged to examine the data presented and
prepare their own interpretations in order to further develop their
theories about the origins of UGMs or the specific category of crop
circles.

Chris A. Rutkowski
Ufology Research of Manitoba
North American Institute for Crop Circle Research      February, 1993

=====================================================================

                           Coding Key for UGM Data
                           =======================

EXAMPLE:

920827,TORONTO            ,ON,CN,03,BY,FC,CC,  4.80,  4.50,  ---,CDMUW ,37

  D      S                 R  C  N  C  T  S     D      D      W    O     U
  A      I                 E  O  U  R  Y  W     I      I      I    T     G
  T      T                 G  U  M  O  P  I     A      A      D    H     M
  E      E                 I  N  B  P  E  R     M      M      T    E
                           O  T  E        L                   H    R     N
                           N  R  R              1      2                 O
                              Y


DATE:                6-digit code of the form: YR/MO/DA

SITE:                Geographical location nearest the UGM, such as a town,
                     city, hamlet, etc.

REGION:              State or Province, as a standard 2-digit code

COUNTRY:             US or CN

NUMBER:              Number of UGMS at the site; if only one, then one
                     entry: 01; if two, then two entries: 01 and 02; if
                     three, then 01, 02, 03; etc.

CROP:                2-digit code for crop:  AL = Alfalfa; BY = Barley;
                     CN = Corn; GR = Grass; IC = Ice; OA = Oats;
                     PO = Potatoes; WH = Wheat

TYPE:                2-digit code for UGM type:  BC = Burned Circle;
                     FC = Flattened Circle; FR = Flattened Ring; HO = Hole;
                     OT = Other; SG = Stunted Growth; VD = Vegetation Dead;
                     VM = Vegetation Missing; YG = Yellowed Grass

SWIRL:               CC = Counterclockwise or CW = Clockwise

DIAM 1:              Diameter of UGM in metres

DIAM 2:              Perpendicular diameter in metres (for eccentric,
                     elliptical or irregular UGMs)

WIDTH:               Width of ring in metres (for UGMs that are rings
                     rather than whole circles)

OTHER:               Miscellaneous comments: A = Animal reactions reported;
                     C = Corridor; D = Dowsed; E = Explained;
                     G = Agriglyph; H = proven Hoax; I = Insufficient Data;
                     M = other Marks or Traces; P = Physiological effects;
                     R = Radiation detected; S = Samples taken; T = Tests
                     on soil or vegetation performed; U = UFO sighted;
                     W = Wind effects

UGM NO.:             Numerical assignment in listing


[Note: the following data table may be cut out and imported into most
database programs as an ASCII delimited file - dAvid tHacker]


                    North American UGMs Reported in 1992
                    ====================================

920320,DUNDEE             ,OH,US,01,GR,VM,  ,  9.20,  8.30,     ,MST   ,1
920400,                   ,NH,US,01,  ,  ,  ,      ,      ,     ,IU    ,2
920400,                   ,IA,US,01,IC,  ,  ,      ,      ,     ,I     ,3
920420,JONESBORO          ,GA,US,01,GR,FC,  , 75.00, 75.00,     ,CIW   ,4
920420,JONESBORO          ,GA,US,02,GR,FC,  , 75.00, 75.00,     ,CIW   ,5
920506,NEW SAREPTA        ,AL,CA,01,OA,HO,  ,  6.00,  6.00,     ,K     ,6
920512,JEFFERSON COUNTY   ,TN,US,01,GR,FC,  , 14.75, 14.75,     ,IW    ,7
920512,JEFFERSON COUNTY   ,TN,US,02,GR,FC,  ,  1.30,  1.30,     ,IW    ,8
920512,JEFFERSON COUNTY   ,TN,US,03,GR,FC,  ,  1.70,  1.70,     ,IW    ,9
920517,CHINO VALLEY       ,AZ,US,01,AL,  ,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,10
920517,CHINO VALLEY       ,AZ,US,02,AL,  ,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,11
920517,CHINO VALLEY       ,AZ,US,03,AL,  ,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,12
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,01,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,13
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,02,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,14
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,03,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,15
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,04,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,16
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,05,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,17
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,06,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,18
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,07,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,19
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,08,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,20
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,09,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,21
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,10,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,22
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,11,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,23
920525,LIMERICK           ,PA,US,12,WH,FC,  ,  1.54,  1.54,     ,GIS   ,24
920600,                   ,MA,US,01,GR,OT,  ,      ,      ,     ,EW    ,25
920600,TROY               ,IL,US,01,GR,FR,  , 12.30, 12.30, 5.38,ISTU  ,26
920600,TROY               ,IL,US,01,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,I     ,27
920600,TROY               ,IL,US,02,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,I     ,28
920600,TROY               ,IL,US,03,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,I     ,29
920600,EFFINGHAM          ,IL,US,01,GR,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IC    ,30
920600,EFFINGHAM          ,IL,US,02,GR,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IC    ,31
920600,EFFINGHAM          ,IL,US,03,GR,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IC    ,32
920612,EAST KNOX COUNTY   ,TN,US,01,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,33
920612,EAST KNOX COUNTY   ,TN,US,02,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,34
920612,EAST KNOX COUNTY   ,TN,US,03,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,35
920612,EAST KNOX COUNTY   ,TN,US,04,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,36
920612,EAST KNOX COUNTY   ,TN,US,05,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,37
920612,EAST KNOX COUNTY   ,TN,US,06,WH,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,IW    ,38
920627,RAEFORD            ,NC,US,01,GR,FR,  ,  4.60,  4.60, 1.85,DMU   ,39
920700,MINIOTA            ,MB,CA,01,OA,FC,CW,  9.80,  9.80,     ,M     ,40
920700,PILOT PEAK         ,CA,US,01,GR,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,AEIU  ,41
920700,PILOT PEAK         ,CA,US,02,GR,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,AEIU  ,42
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,01,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,43
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,02,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,44
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,03,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,45
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,04,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,46
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,05,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,47
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,06,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,48
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,07,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,49
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,08,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,50
920701,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,09,GR,OT,  , 12.00, 18.00,     ,EW    ,51
920705,FERGUS FALLS       ,MN,US,01,AL,FC,  ,  4.60,  4.60,     ,CI    ,52
920705,FERGUS FALLS       ,MN,US,02,AL,FC,  ,  4.60,  4.60,     ,CI    ,53
920705,HOBBEMA            ,AL,CA,01,BY,FC,  , 14.30, 10.60,     ,EM    ,54
920705,HOBBEMA            ,AL,CA,02,BY,FC,  ,      ,      ,     ,EM    ,55
920715,ST.ADOLPHE         ,MB,CA,01,WH,OT,  ,      ,      ,     ,EW    ,56
920721,FRIEDENSRUH        ,MB,CA,01,GR,OT,  , 10.00,  5.25,     ,AEK   ,57
920800,CHAMPAGNE          ,IL,US,01,  ,  ,  ,      ,      ,     ,I     ,58
920801,STRATHCLAIR        ,MB,CA,01,WH,FC,CC,  8.60,  8.60,     ,S     ,59
920808,STRATHCLAIR        ,MB,CA,01,WH,FC,CC,  8.60,  8.60,     ,CGS   ,60
920815,IPSWICH            ,MB,CA,01,WH,FC,CC,  8.00,  7.50,     ,CGS   ,61
920815,STRATHCLAIR        ,MB,CA,01,WH,FC,  ,  6.10,  6.10,     ,EW    ,62
920815,STRATHCLAIR        ,MB,CA,01,WH,FC,CC,  7.40,  7.40,     ,CGS   ,63
920815,KYLE               ,SK,CA,01,WH,FR,  ,  3.70,  3.70, 1.30,M     ,64
920817,BRANDON            ,MB,CA,01,GR,FC,  ,  6.00,  6.00,     ,E     ,65
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,01,WH,FR,CC,  4.00,  4.00, 0.50,      ,66
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,02,WH,FR,CC,  4.00,  4.00, 0.50,      ,67
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,03,WH,FR,CC,  4.00,  4.00, 0.50,      ,68
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,04,WH,FR,CC,  4.00,  4.00, 0.50,      ,69
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,05,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,70
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,06,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,71
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,07,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,72
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,08,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,73
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,09,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,74
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,10,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,75
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,11,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,76
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,12,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,77
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,13,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,78
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,14,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,79
920825,GUY                ,AL,CA,15,WH,FR,CC,  3.00,  3.00, 0.50,      ,80
920820,MILESTONE          ,SK,CA,01,WH,FR,CC, 19.40,  6.80,     ,DIK   ,81
920830,AUSTINBURG         ,OH,US,01,CN,OT,  ,  7.70,  2.50,     ,ST    ,82
920908,CLARK              ,SD,US,01,PO,VD,  ,185.00,185.00,     ,MS    ,83
920923,ALBERTVILLE        ,SK,CA,01,OA,FR,CC, 10.77, 10.77, 0.50,GI    ,84
920923,MELITA             ,MB,CA,01,WH,FC,CC,  5.23,  5.23,     ,      ,85
920923,MELITA             ,MB,CA,02,WH,FC,CC,  2.50,  2.50,     ,C     ,86
920924,ALBERTVILLE        ,SK,CA,01,WH,FR,CC,  6.77,  6.77, 0.20,GI    ,87
920927,PITTSVILLE         ,MO,US,01,GR,YG,  ,  3.00,  3.00,     ,GKT   ,88
920930,ORILLIA            ,ON,CA,01,CN,FC,CC, 30.00, 23.00,     ,      ,89
921002,NIPAWIN            ,SK,CA,01,WH,FC,CC,  2.46,  2.46,     ,      ,90
921002,NIPAWIN            ,SK,CA,02,WH,FC,CC,  2.46,  2.46,     ,      ,91
921002,NIPAWIN            ,SK,CA,03,WH,FC,CC,  2.46,  2.46,     ,      ,92
921115,MILESTONE          ,SK,CA,01,WH,FR,  ,      ,      ,     ,GD    ,93

=====================================================================


          1992 North American UGMs, Annotated Case Listing
          ================================================

920320    Dundee, Ohio
- a "scorched-looking" circle, 27x30 feet in two diameters and with a
"jagged" edge, was found in a pasture 1500 feet from a farmhouse.  The soil
was not burned, however, and was found to contain "black particulate
matter" of some kind.
Source: Ted Spickler, MUFON

9204??           , New Hampshire
-  UGMs were found following a small local flap of UFO reports.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

9204??           , Iowa
-  A number of "ice circles" were reported.
Source: Vance Tiede?

920426    Jonesboro, Georgia
-  two large areas of flattened grass were discovered in about the same
location that others were found in 1991.  One area was the size of a
football field.  Weather damage was suspected.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920506    New Sarepta, Alberta
-  a "space cookie" UGM was discovered in a meadow.  It is a perfect
circle, 6 metres in diameter. Its depth varies from 5 cm to 31 cm.  Grass
is growing straight up both inside and outside the circle.  No tracks were
found leading to the area.  The UGM is not a sinkhole.
Source: Gordon Kijek, AUFOSG

920512    Jefferson County, Tennessee
-  several indentations were found in a grassy field.  Some were swirled
circles, others "bars" and others irregular.  Probable lodging.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS; MUFON

920517    Chino Valley, Arizona
- three patches of flattened alfalfa were found.  Probable weather damage.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920525    Limerick, Pennsylvania
-  at least 12 "matted down" areas were found in a wheatfield north of
Philadelphia.  Three were circles about five feet in diameter, arranged in
a triangle.  One feature was "T-shaped".  Soil samples taken by a UFO
investigator "showed no irregularities".  Geiger counter readings were also
normal.  Although a hoax was suspected by the UFO investigator, the owner
of the field believes that the UGMs were caused by lodging, wind and
fertilizer damage, and that "It happens every year".
Source: Steve Bernheisel on FIDONET; UFO Newsclipping Service #275
        Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

9206??               , Massachusetts
- a small area of flattened cattails was found in a marsh close to a
freeway and reported as a crop circle.
Source: Tom Randolph on DEC COM via INTERNET

920600     Troy, Illinois
- a doughnut-shaped impression was found in sweet flag weeds.  The circle
looked much like others that had appeared in the same field in 1991.
Samples from the circles were analyzed by Dr. Levengood and shown to have
abnormalities.  A skeptic posted an admission of hoaxing on a computer
bulletin board, but this was never verified.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS; NAICCR; INTERNET

920600     Troy, Illinois
- three circles were found in a wheat field.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920600     Effingham, Illinois
- a pilot reported seeing three circles connected by bars in a field.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920612     East Knox County, Tennessee
- numerous impressions were found in a wheat field.  The areas were
irregular and showed signs of lodging.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS; MUFON

920627    Raeford, North Carolina
-  a circle of flattened grass was found in a hay field following a CE2 UFO
sighting.  A loud noise, "like a freight train", was heard, and two
witnesses ran to look out their front door.  A object "the size of a
swimming pool", "like orange windows all around it", was in a field about
300 feet away from their house. When they went to call other witnesses, the
object disappeared.
Source: Patrick Kirol on FIDONET

9207??    Miniota, Manitoba
- it was reported that a circle was found in an oat field.  It was
perfectly round and 32 feet in diameter.  The oats were flattened and
swirled clockwise.  The center of the circle is devoid of vegetation.
Source: NAICCR

9207??    Pilot Peak, California
- according to the Phoenix Project, "landing zones" were discovered near
the site of an alleged underground UFO base.  Visits to the site by
independent investigators found only patches of grass trampled by deer.
Source: John Pickens on INTERNET via PARANET

920701    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  nine "horseshoe-shaped" patches of flattened grass were found on either
side of a brook in a Winnipeg suburb. Because of recent storms and heavy
rainfall, lodging was thought to be the cause.
Source: Guy Westcott; NAICCR

920705    Fergus Falls, Minnesota
- a "dumbbell" formation was discovered in alfalfa.  Two 15-foot circles
were connected by a 25-foot shaft.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS; William McNeff, Minnesota MUFON

920705    Hobbema, Alberta
-  two ovals of flattened barley were found in a field after unusual lights
were observed descending to the ground.  The largest UGM has a major axis
of 47 feet.  The crop is pushed away uniformly from the centers of the
patches, but the centers are "clumped", like breaking waves.  Barley inside
the circles is "white", and devoid of colour.  It was later suggested that
the areas were due to spilled seeds and fertilizer, combined with lodging.
Source: Gord Kijek, AUFOSG

920715    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  a field beside a highway was discovered to have numerous patches of
flattened crop, in irregular patterns.  The formations were discovered by
the same person who found case 920701.  Investigation by NAICCR and
interviews with the owner of the field established that the crop had been
laid down by strong winds and heavy rain.  The person who discovered the
formations was convinced that aliens created the flattened patches.
Source: NAICCR

920721    Friedensruh, Manitoba
-  a farmer found a triangular area of flattened/swirled grass which was
surrounded by an electric fence.  The dimensions were 31x27x17 feet.  Local
residents could not explain the phenomenon.  However, NAICCR investigators
found evidence that animals had trampled the site.
Source: NAICCR

9208??    Champagne, Illinois
- crop formations were found?
Source: MUFON

920801    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a circle of flattened wheat was discovered in a field southwest of
Strathclair.  It was 28 feet in diameter.  The wheat was flattened and
swirled in a counterclockwise fashion.
Source: NAICCR

920808    Strathclair, Manitoba
- a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars (a circle
with an attached arrow pointing away from it) was discovered in a field
southwest of Strathclair.  The main circle was 28 feet in diameter, with no
detectable eccentricity.  The wheat was flattened counterclockwise.  In the
arrow, the wheat was flattened away from the circle.  The arrow pointed on
a bearing of 260 degrees.
Source: NAICCR

920815    Ipswich, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered just east of Ipswich.  The main circle was elliptical, with axes
26 and 24.5 feet.  The wheat was flattened counterclockwise.  The arrow
pointed on a bearing of 65 degrees.  A UFO was seen hovering over the site
the night before the UGM was discovered.
Source: NAICCR

920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat was found near other crop circle UGMs.  It was
roughly 20 feet in diameter.  Wheat was laid down in random clumps.
Examination suggested the area was caused by lodging.
Source: NAICCR

920815    Strathclair, Manitoba
-  a flattened area of wheat in the shape of the symbol for Mars was
discovered west of Strathclair.  The main circle was 24 feet in diameter.
The wheat was flattened in a counterclockwise fashion.  The arrow pointed
on a bearing of 120 degrees.
Source: NAICCR

920815    Kyle, Saskatchewan
-  a flattened ring was found, 12 feet in diameter with a core of standing
wheat, 3.5 feet in diameter.  In the center were "porcupine droppings".
Source: Chad Deetken

920817    Brandon, Manitoba
-  a television station received an anonymous call that a crop circle had
been found on the property of the Brandon airport. Explained easily as a
parachuting target.
Source: CKX-TV; Jeff Harland; NAICCR

920825    Guy, Alberta

-  fifteen circular marks were found in a field near Peace River, Alberta.
Investigated by Gord Kijek of AUFOSG.
Source: AUFOSG

920820    Milestone, Saskatchewan
-  a triplet of crop circles, touching each other in a line, were
discovered in a wheat field.  The dimensions of the affected area were
63x22 feet.  All were swirled counterclockwise.  A "squashed porcupine" was
found inside the formation.  Investigated by Chad Deetken.

920830    Austinburg, Ohio
- a rectangular impression was found in sweet corn.  It measured 25x8 feet,
and stalks had been "bent, not broken".  No footprints or evidence of wind
damage were found.  Tests by Dr. Levengood found that tassels on plants
from inside the impression were different from control samples.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920908    Clark, South Dakota
- a "perfect" 600-foot circle of dying potato plants was found.
Source: Linda Howe; MUFON, Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920923    Albertville, Saskatchewan
-  a circle with a ring was discovered in an oat field. The ring was 35
feet in diameter, and the circle was about 16 feet in diameter.  It was
swirled counterclockwise, but the center of the swirl was off-center. The
ring had a varying width of 15 to 27 inches.
Source: Chad Deetken

920923    Melita, Manitoba
- two circles were found in a wheat field, only a few feet apart and
connected by a corridor.
Reported to NAICCR and investigated by Jeff Harland.

920924    Albertville, Saskatchewan
-  a second circle with a ring was discovered in a wheatfield.  Ring
diameter: 22 feet; circle: 13 feet.  Ring width: 8 inches.  All were
swirled counterclockwise.
Source:  Chad Deetken

920927    Pittsville, Missouri
- a "C-shape" and two rectangles were found in a pasture.  Dogs barked
constantly the night before.  The grass was discoloured and parts were
"overgreen".
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley, CNACCS

920930    Orillia, Ontario
-  one large oval patch of flattened corn was found in a field near
Orillia.  The area was 75 by 100 feet, on the south slope of a south-facing
hill, only about 100 feet from a major highway.  The corn was flattened and
swirled in a counterclockwise direction. Reported to NAICCR.
Source: Colin McKim.

921002    Nipawin, Saskatchewan
-  three circles were found in a wheatfield, spaced irregularly.  All had
diameters of about 8 feet and were swirled counterclockwise.
Source: Chad Deetken

921115    Milestone, Saskatchewan
- a "half-moon" of flattened wheat was found appended to the original site
of 920820.
Source: Chad Deetken
=====================================================================


Lemme know if there are some corrections to make.  If not I will be
sending it out all over this week.

Snorg you soon,
----- dAvid tHacker -----  | Box 2817, Olds, Alberta CANADA  T0M 1P0
Communications Coordinator | Phone: [phone]  Fax: [phone]
 Alberta UFO Study Group   | Email [e-mail]



--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (d.h. keyes)
Subject: UFO SIGHTINGS SURVEY/DATA COMPILATION
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 16:39:08 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: julian.uwo.ca
Lines: 67



TO ALL:        I'm interested in compiling some info on UFO
sightings. I am a physics student at the University of Western Ontario
and am doing this strickly for interest. For all those paranoids out
there - I am not an FBI agent or any other type of government
operator or employee for any country ...
    I will share all results to anyone who requests them (except
evil government operators, of course). If you would like to help,
please download the form below and electronically fill it out and
email to me at the address on the news header. I am using a form so
that I can compare data efficiently. Thanks in advance to all who
participate. All data is of course optional, just fill in as much as
you desire to.

Later,  WOOD!

--------------------- (cut here) --------------------------------------

            UFO SIGHTING REPORT

    PERSONAL INFORMATION (OPTIONAL)

NAME:
AGE:
OCCUPATION:

    SIGHTING INFORMATION

DATE OF SIGHTING:
TIME OF SIGHTING:
YOUR AGE AT DATE OF SIGHTING:
NUMBER OF WITNESSES EXCLUDING YOURSELF:
APPROXIMATE DISTANCE FROM UFO:
PLACE OF SIGHTING (CITY, STATE, COUNTRY,etc):



    UFO INFORMATION/DESCRIPTION

GENERAL SHAPE OF OBJECT:
APPROXIMATE SIZE OF OBJECT:
COLOUR/COLOR:
DESCRIBE ANY LIGHTS OR LUMINOUSITY ASSOCIATED WITH THE OBJECT:




DESCRIBE ANY SOUNDS WHICH THE OBJECT PRODUCED:




DESCRIBE ANY MOVEMENTS YOU SAW THE UFO MAKE (IF STATIONARY, SAY SO):




OTHER COMMENTS (ENTER ANY ADDITIONAL INFO YOU WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE.
    EXAMPLES WOULD BE SIGHTINGS OF OR COMMUNICATIONS WITH ALIENS,
    FURTHER DESCRIPTIONS OF UFO, ETC.):






Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu!346r5fk
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Friday, 19 Mar 1993 20:18:41 EST
From: TODD MOORE <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FILE: ALABAMA CATTLE MUTILATIONS
Distribution: usa
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9


I believe that aliens are taking just what they need to clone a half


breed between our 2 races because their alien life form cannot

survive in our atmosphere. this is my Hypothesis

sincerely Todd Moore [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: RE: True Bibo Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 18:03:32 GMT
Lines: 17



I've never really delved deep into trivia before, but this was amazing:

    > QUESTION:  Can anyone confirm that somewhere in a field in the north of
    >England there used to be a sign saying: "Please do not throw stones at
    >this notice"?

I not only can confirm it, but can say exactly where it was: as you come up
onto the moor from Eldwick Just after the first fence), walking over to
Ilkley. (Maybe it was put there by aliens so they could practice writing
notices with pencils?)
                                                    Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
(Switzerland)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Message?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:26:36 GMT
Lines: 8

    Paul...

        You ask if the real message is that our government
    is screwing us and what can we do about it... I say shoot
    all the politicians and set up an anarchical system.
    Finally, freedom for all!

                    ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:42:03 GMT
Lines: 17

    My question is why are aliens always depicted as nude?
Wouldn't it be prudent to wear protective gear around us humans
since we have all these germs? Also, in order to have advancement
there must be a need to overcome some obstacle. For instance,
why do we wear clothes. Along with the fact that there would be
a whole lot more children around, we need to protect ourselves
from elements of the environment. Ei: Cold=sweater,jeans,wolly
socks,etc... Germy=facemask,apron,gloves,etc... Now if these
aliens were impervious to germs or the environment then they
would never have advanced since one of their most fundamental
survival needs of shelter is already met. So therefore aliens
must wear clothes, for the simple fact of evolution. Or have
they gone soo far to not need clothes, but that would cause
ease of life and therefore no basic challenge. Remember:
A body at ease will stay at ease unless it figits.

                    ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 20:46:08 GMT
Lines: 8


    Why is it I don't hear of any serious UfO convention
being held here in Las Vegas, Nevada? I'm interested in what
th experts have to say but I'm not about to go all the way
to BFE (Bumb F* Egypt) to participate. Please does anyone
have an answer to this?...

                ^^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: A challenge...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:22:31 GMT
Lines: 32

    I challenge any alien being within ear or eye shot of
this newsgroup to find me and at least try to abduct me...

                    ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE




























Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14755 alt.paranormal:6708 sci.skeptic:41127
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From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 21:42:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>=While our science is
>=still young (public science that is; for all I know the military might be
>=planting the American flag on Antares-4), our sense of sprituality as a whole
>=is even younger.
>Gee.  I guess the fact that people have been making the same claims as the
>new-agers for milennia doesn't count?  Catch a clue:  The same bullshit
>promulgated by new-agers has been claimed for thousands of years, without
>demonstrable success.  Even younger than science?  Well, the new-agers tendency
>to use pseudo-scientific jargon is younger, but that's about the only part of
>their claptrap that is.

Really, your negativity astounds me.  I will not react to your comments; they
they were rather abrasive and rude.  I do take issue with you for
calling my material 'bullshit', 'claptrap', and telling me to catch
a clue.  This is an international forum, and I dont think such senseless
flames have a place here.  Tone that post down a bit, and I will gladly
respond to any critiques/concerns you may have with what I have to say.

                    - Richard Temps
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Subject: FTP sights for this news group..!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysk
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1993 12:11:27 GMT
Lines: 18

Has this newsgroup got any FTP sights that I can receive any information on
U.F.O's, paranormal e.g ghosts etc..

But I am especially interested in UFO's especially British sightings..

I have heard of one at the Bentwater USAF base in England in the early 80's.

This was mentioned on the SKY news special show on UFO's on Monday night.

Thanks in advance,

MARK

--
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
|"Life is hard and then you die"               | Mark Nockalls, Cov Uni.      |
|                                              | Mail: [e-mail] |
*_____________________________________________________________________________*
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nevada.edu!jimi!little-jimmy.cs.unlv.edu!blondie
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Why are all captured aliens male?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:43:43 GMT
Lines: 8

    Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.
Ei: Ebe and Krll... Do the women up there have the same thing
pulled on them? Like maybe they get the "safer" jobs of monitoring
by space while the men go down and risk their butts? One can always
smell a fake when it looks blatantly chauvanistic.........

                    ^^^^^^^BLONDIE

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14758 alt.paranormal:6710 sci.skeptic:41128
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From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 21:56:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Lines: 26

>=According to Jacques Vallee, you can even get a
>=government license to be a douser in Russia.
>
>To whomever wondered at the claim that Russia was now being inundated with lots
>of phony psychics:  Please take note.

Well, the United States has been inundated with phony psychics a lot longer
than they have.  Note however that the implication is there that if there
are phony psychics, there are real ones as well.  The real psychics here know
who they are.  :)

>=I really doubt many psychics care enough about that subject to really
>=delve into it.  Psy powers manifest the best when there is need for them;
>=real need triggers them more than anything else, according to my researches.
>Translation:  "Psychic powers" is just another phrase for assigning
>significance to coincidence.  Let me run a test of my psychic abilities.  I'm
>going to flip a coin several times, predicting the outcome of each toss:
> <stuff deleted>

First of all, I dont believe in coincidence or luck.  As for the claim that all
psychic powers are based on coincidence, you might want to research more on
the subject of 'psychic powers' before you make that claim.  It would be
interesting to see how you could explain things like telekinesis away to
coincidence.  Of course, you might not believe in it unless you saw it,
and perhaps not even then, but such claims of mental control over our
physical environment have no basis in 'coincidence' or 'luck'.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (ELMAR VOGT)
Subject: Re: More little contribution to this place...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Net)
Organization: Uni Ulm Physik
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 21:43:55 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:

>I write:
>>>Ahh, but not this force.  We are not reacting to air, the planets gravity,
>>>or anything else.  It is a reactionless drive, where the energy path goes
>>>striaght from a power source directly to the motion of the craft.   One
>>>might say that this is akin to propelling a ship by mounting a fan on the
>>>deck, pointed to blow wind into the sails.  This we know is impossible.
>>>However if this field were to exist, something along a similar vein
>>>would occur.
>>
>>So you do not believe in conservation of momentum then.
>>

>I believe it exists for most of the things we observe today; but things
>like that become pretty useless on the level of quantum mechanics, from
>what I know.
>                               - R T

Don't get caught in that trap!
Conservation laws like that for momentum, energy, charge, etc. are
DEFINITELY THE ONLY ONES that STILL hold in Quantum mechanics. As a matter
of fact, most of modern QM found on the assumption, that these laws still
hold true.

    yours, Elmar
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From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 22:28:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Lines: 99

Goodness, but this thread is keeping me busy.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>   In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>   >In article <[e-mail]>,
>   >[e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>   I suggest you do your research a bit better before you make comments
>   like that.  You probably believe the fact that Yuri Geller was a fraud,
>
>(1) That's Uri Geller; can't you even spell his name correctly?
>(2) Use of ``the fact that'' construction presupposes the truth of the
>proposition following the ``that'', which is precisely what you try
>to deny.  A Freudian slip?

Perhaps.  :>  As for Uri Geller as a person, I believe he met with failure
because of his ego and lack of ability to relax under intense pressure.
More on that later.  I have read some literature surrounding this person
(sorry, no references today; look up 'Uri Geller' or 'telekinesis' at your
library), and I believe he had the abilities he cliamed to have had.  I also
believe that elements of the press were out to hang him, and through his own
lack of foresight, they succeeded.  I personally think that there are a
handful of people out there with a much better abilites than he, but they
definitely have enough good sense to keep away from the media.

>See my earlier question.  You do have the statistics on the occurrence
>of pro- and anti- Geller stories to back up this claim, don't you?
>
No, not really.

>   Have you ever gone to an interview with four people asking you pointed
>   questions as to your effectiveness, skills and abilities?  Didn't feel
>   nice, huh?  Why, I bet you might even get a little nervous and maybe
>   stutter a little bit, or something.
>Ah, this old chestnut.  Ever hear of a thing called professional
>sports?  Did you ever notice that a player in professional sports
...
>Did you ever notice that the best players are those who are able to
>perform at or near their best even under such hostile conditions?  Did
>you ever wonder why purported psychic abilities are the one (alleged)
>human ability that disappears almost completely under the conditions
>that would most severely test them?  Did you ever think of the
>relative costs of using the failure of alleged psychic abilities under
>test conditions to deduce their non-existence vs. assuming, not merely
>the existence of the alleged psychic powers themselves, but a species
>of performance inhibition not attested for other human abilities under
>test/hostile conditions?  [Insert the GE College Bowl, Jeopardy,
>professional chess torunaments, spelling bees, integration bees, and
>other games testing mental, as opposed to physical, ability in the
>preceding paragraph, to counter the boring objection that psychic
>abilities are mental not physical.  Again, people can demonstrate a
>good performance in mental tasks even under stressful and/or hostile
>conditions, while psychic abilities seem to evaporate.]

Yes, those are all very good _mental_ and _physical_ skills.  I am
not talking about ability in football, mathematics, or anything else.
I am talking about the manipulation of energies which are seated closer to
the soul than to the brain.  I am not the world's best researcher on the
Uri Geller phenomena, but I _DO_ know my occult/paranormal literature.
Almost nowhere do I read that 'psychic' phenomena has its base in the
brain.  You go on to give a long list of activities that are all have to do
with how well the brain and body can function under stressful conditions.
Well, as you said, they can.  Just watch the SuperBowl.  But psychic powers
are not drawn from those sources.  They are drawn from various receptivity/
energy centers that are involved with our multi-dimensional existence
(beyond the three we're all familiar with).  What does that have to do with
their ability to function under stressful conditions?  It has everything to
do with it.  These centers are much more finicky than our body; to many
psychics, the hustle and bustle of everyday living is a tremendous block
to these upper-level centers, and only through meditation and deep relaxation
do they have a lot of contact with them.  Additionally, the skepticism people
naturally 'broadcast' are also detrimental to scientific testing; if you
pick it up, your psychic systems are liable to act on it and flunk out on you.
Now, I am not saying it's impossible to give reliable, accurate and repeatable
scientific results here!  Just that it's difficult to do, certain 'shielding'
and 'strengthening' measures should be taken before such testing occurs.
There are also those psychics who are shielded/'strengthened'/naturally wired
all the time; they probably experience the most access to their higher
psychic plane, and would probably be the best people to volunteer for such a
test.  They are also the ones least making 'displays' of their abilities.

>                           But a few experiments like
>   this do not change the prevailing attitude of the scientific community; no
>   matter what the experiment was, there will always be some peers who will
>   cling to their own views of reality and say the results were tainted by bad
>   science or will provide a ludicrous explanation for the results.  How do
>   people who use their psychic abilities every day react to this?  They dont;
>   they laugh about it and continue with their lives.
>
>Ah, you should read Ingo Swann's novel (_Star Fire_, if I remember the
>title correctly).  A controlled test of his powers turned up zilch.
>He has a rather romanticized version of the test in his novel, in
>which the (naturally genuine) psychic is the victim of the
>close-minded scientist.  So, alleged psychics, or, at least, one of
>them, don't necessarily just laugh about it.  They take pen in hand

There's the key word.  One of them.  :)

                - Richard Temps
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 22:07:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 22

Blondie, I sure don't know what you are basing your concepts on but
from all the the abduction/contactee experiences I have heard of (my own
included) the aliens were wearing clothing and some in protective gear.
I have seldom heard of nude aliens unless they were mating with humans.

As far as a species progressing because of need rather than ambition..
I don't believe that is a true basis. We as humans are very comfortable
and yet we seek more knowlege. We don't sit in our houses comfortably
fermenting in front of the TV.. OPPS lost that argument I just described
my husband.

Actually, I believe that evolution may start from a need but it takes
curosity and ingenuity to actually do something about it. I feel it is
these characteristics that cause one to evolve.

just my 2 cents

--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 22:11:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>    Why is it I don't hear of any serious UfO convention
>being held here in Las Vegas, Nevada? I'm interested in what
>th experts have to say but I'm not about to go all the way
>to BFE (Bumb F* Egypt) to participate. Please does anyone
>have an answer to this?...
>
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE


Where have you been? in the last week of December and part of the first
week in January of this year the UFO World conference was held in,
yes you guessed it, LAS VEGAS, NEVADA!

Seems to me that you read more and spouted off less you may actually
get something off of the board.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~DENISE
--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Answering to two articles, by Grant Edwards and A Richard Temps.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>[e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>:[..] When *I* don't know how, say, Uri Geller did it,
>: I assume I'm probably not smart enough to find the trick.
>:
>
>It's not even that you (or anybody else) isn't smart enough to
>understand something -- they don't even try!  When you don't know how
>Uri Geller did it, I would wager it's not because you're not smart
>enough, it's because you haven't actually spent any time working on
>it.  There's nothing wrong with that -- we all have a finite amount of
>time -- just don't sell yourself short.  Anybody could find the trick
>if they just looked for it.

What I wanted to say: I don't just mentally drop the lower jaw and goggle,
but I think instead.  Of course, with that attitude one can see how he does
many of his tricks.  But possibly there remains a rest of unclear cases, and
that's not a reason to believe in his psi abilities.

I think it's a bit dangerous to say "anybody could find the trick if they just
looked for it" for that may lead people who look but are not experienced enough
to look at the right place to the conclusion that it's for real: "Grant said
anybody can see the trick, but I don't see it, so there is none."

Or short, one should always allow for the possibility that one may overlook
something.  That's what I tried to say above.

----
I didn't see the original article below, but...

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
=I suggest you do your research a bit better before you make comments
=like that.  You probably believe the fact that Yuri Geller was a fraud,
=which is exactly what the media said him to be.  Ignore all the
=professional testimony that he did things that simply shouldn't be
=possible.

When I see how he does it, may I then believe he's a fraud?

So what if the professionals (scientists, not magicians, right?) don't see the
trick and fall into the "I'm so intelligent, he can't possibly deceive me" trap
I warn of above?

"Things that simply shouldn't be possible"...  David Copperfield does such
things!

You should be more critical of what scientists say.  That reminds me of the
"is science a religion?" thread...

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
Johannes Scotus Eriugena, the greatest European philosopher of the 9th century,
said that if reason and authority conflict, reason should be given preference.
And if that doesn't sound reasonable to you, you'll just have to accept it...
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From: [e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz)
Subject: Re: Why are all captured aliens male?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.
>Ei: Ebe and Krll... Do the women up there have the same thing
>pulled on them? Like maybe they get the "safer" jobs of monitoring
>by space while the men go down and risk their butts? One can always
>smell a fake when it looks blatantly chauvanistic.........
>
>                    ^^^^^^^BLONDIE
>
 Actually there have been some alleged encounters with female aliens. The
reports seem to fall into 3 basic categories: 1) Godess creatures - something
like a Virgin Mary archtype; usually vending the standard "peace, love, stop
the war, get rid of the nukes, become enlightened, etc." Good advise, but not
anything we haven't heard echoed by every religion/philosophy/sane person! 2)
ET-ladies looking for..uhmm..breeding stock, shall we say? ;-) Mostly these
reports seem to center on what might be just an adolescent male fantasy, and
like #1 there is usually little evidence to suggest that it is anything else:
i.e. - no witnesses, no physical proof ("Hey look! She left me an ALIEN COMDOM!" What more do 'ya want?") 3) very rare, Humanoid Female Aliens - seemingly just
working alongside their male counterparts. These reports usually seem to stress
some Utopian Society with mirror-like equality between the sexes; we can only
hope that such has been achieved sucessfully elsewhere, since the situation on
Earth is anything but equal! Some researchers label these reports as fanciful
dreams or projections of the participants, but I would guess that they have a
higher probability of being representationally accurate if the culture were
actually a highly evolved one. As for the captured aspect...it seems that the
old adage about sailors on shore leave might apply here. Most drunk drivers
arrested by the HP and PD are men..most women are smarter than to present such
a high-profile appearance in public; maybe the ET's have a similar phenomenon
happening with their crews. The guys in the crew windup captured because of somemale-propensity for getting into trouble. Just a thought...



-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])[e-mail] *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Fentiman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Message?
Date: 22 Mar 1993 15:59:48 -0600
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 20
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References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ub.d.umn.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
:    Paul...
:
:        You ask if the real message is that our government
:    is screwing us and what can we do about it... I say shoot
:    all the politicians and set up an anarchical system.
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Isn't that an Oxymoron?

:    Finally, freedom for all!
:
:                    ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE


--
    _______________________________________________________________________
   /  Robert Fentiman   /  Amiga  /      InterNet: [e-mail]  /
  / Physics/CS Major   /  2000   /  At: University of Minnesota, Duluth  /
 /____________________/_________/_______________________________________/
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Answers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 23:09:15 GMT
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Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Fighters: Until we learn how to get along here on Earth they
>are not going to let us go very far. I saw the pictures of Sister
>Teresa getting the donation. I believe she would actually go to
>another planet to help the poor and sick. Billy Graham says that
>when he dies he'll start preaching to other people on other planets.
>Look out space people here he comes.
>John Winston. The only reason I don't talk about UFO activity on
>other conuntries is that most of my information comes from the area
>where I live (USA). I'll try to be more global in the future.

Well gee John...if you spent your money on slightly more valid
reading/viewing material other than Weekly World News...you
just might get a more cosmopolitan view of the environment you
live in.

But taking this Geraldo-Wanna Be of the UFO world stance by
posting crappola from yellow journalism rag sheets will only
bring you the derision that accompanies documents of that
nature.

Len

--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (Roger Dietz)
Subject: Message?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 22:27:05 GMT
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Blondie

Talk about shooting all politicians will make me an ardent admirer of yours!


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From: [e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz)
Subject: Re: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>yes you guessed it, LAS VEGAS, NEVADA!
>
>Seems to me that you read more and spouted off less you may actually
>get something off of the board.
>
 Wow! Somebody give Denise a valium! :^o Jeez..liten up already! Maybe Blondie
was like, out-of-town visiting relatives in December, eh? Why not tell us
where YOU saw the announcement and how far in advance it was planned. I didnt
hear about it either...!



-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])[e-mail] *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
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From: [e-mail] (Philip HOENIG)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
> >=According to Jacques Vallee, you can even get a
> >=government license to be a douser in Russia.
> >
> >To whomever wondered at the claim that Russia was now being inundated with lots
> >of phony psychics:  Please take note.
>
> Well, the United States has been inundated with phony psychics a lot longer
> than they have.  Note however that the implication is there that if there
> are phony psychics, there are real ones as well.  The real psychics here know
> who they are.  :)
>

On the subject of dousers (sp?), I would just like to add to the discussion some
local happenings...

There is apparently buried on the coast around here, (Victoria, a state in the
south of Australia for those who don't know.) a wrecked Portuguese ship that was
supposed to have visited our shores long before it was officially discovered.
The local government even offered some reward for finding it, and a couple of
dousers (among others) took up the challenge. The last I heard about it was that
they found it and were going to dig it up to collect it.

This was a few months ago, and nothing further has been said. Why not? I can
think up a few explanations..

i)   They were frauds who conned people into giving them donations.
ii)  They really thought they could douse but were wrong.
iii) ASIO covered it up.

Surely *real* psychics could have found the ship. They did not have to do it
in a laboratory, where paranormal phenomena don't seem to work anymore.

Have a nice life,
         Phil. (Yes, a newbie)

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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Fire In The Sky.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 07:38:11 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>This is required viewing and their will be a test.

I was told that there wouldn't be any tests in this newsgroup.  And
we're still waiting for you Chelm Jewish Appeal contribution.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     A can of ASPARAGUS, 73 pigeons, some LIVE ammo, and a FROZEN
 |warren@      DAQUIRI!!
/ nysernet.org
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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Answer
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 10:05:36 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Dear Earth Dwellers: I would suggest that you people not conplain
>so much because you did volunteer to come here.

I did not volunteer, I was sent here as a punishment for mis-use of
the net.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     He probably just wants to take over my CELLS and then
 |warren@      EXPLODE inside me like a BARREL of runny CHOPPED LIVER! Or
/ nysernet.org maybe he'd like to PSYCHOLIGICALLY TERRORISE ME until I have
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From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 16:45:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Lines: 40
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar) writes:
: >Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: >: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar) writes:
: >: >Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: >
: >: >:   The bottom line remains that whatever the phenomenon is that's
: >: >:   going on here there is no evidence that it's not strictly
: >: >:   inside the head of the alleged "abductee".
: >
: >: >Actually, if you have been watching the FOX tv program Sightings, you would
: >: >have noted that one of those persons who had an artifact left in his body
: >: >had it removed.  Not to say, of course, that he wasn't faking it.
: >
: >:   And that IS they key, isn't it?   Where is this "artifact" now?
: >:   You don't know?   Gee, what a surprise!
: >
: >: ---peter
: >
: >Jesse Long is his name.  He still has the artifact.  Some analysis was
: >done on the object.  It looks like a traingular piece of glass, is
: >transparent, has some metallic properties, has an unusual structure,
: >can't be scratched or broken, and is believed not to be able to be
: >manufactured here on earth.

:   And who, and where is Jesse Long?   And what about the other inform-
:   ation I asked for, like what the laboratory was that did the analysis?
:

: ---peter

Actually, peter, you did not ask me for any further information (see your text
above)
Matthew Zenkar

[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 16:53:33 GMT
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
: >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
: >
: >>>I contacted someone that was involved in Dr. Mack's abduction group,
: >>>and he told me that Mack had collected 2 implants, and that so far,
: >>>studies of them were inconclusive.
: >>
: >>  I see.  "Someone" said this.   Anyway a year ago I tried to track
: >>  down the claims that Mack had artifacts but they reached a dead end.
: >>
: >>  And that's they way it is with all these artifact claims.  They
: >>  evaporate the closer you look.
: >>
: >
: >Well, I didn't name him, because he wants a private life. He was told what
: >he was told by Mack. I believe him.


:   Of course.  There's always an "explanation".  "He wants his privacy"
:   "Doesn't want to create a media circus"   "Took it to a lab for
:   analysis but they <lost it | turned out to be front for the Feds>"
:   "It was stolen by <unknown | The Feds | MIB>"  "Sure, I'll let you
:   have a peek at it for $1000"     Et Cetera, Et Cetera!

:   There always an excuse, there's never any physical evidence.

: ---peter

Actually, peter, there is physical evidence.  But, some self-serving people
are not that interested in letting the public in on that kind of stuff.

What about the Billy Meir metal samples that were given to Bell labs in
Europe?  They supposedly had superconducting properties.  They disappeared
and now look where some of the recent advances in superconducting technology
came out of.  BELL LABS.

In light of things like this happening, it does not suprise me that some
people want to keep to themselves.

Besides, peter, even if you had conclusive proof of alien abductions, are
there any people out there who would listen to you any more than you listen
to the people who claim to have been abducted but "lack" physical evidence?

Matthew Zenkar

[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 00:30:43 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar) writes:
>Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:

>: >>  And that's they way it is with all these artifact claims.  They
>: >>  evaporate the closer you look.
>: >>
>: >
>: >Well, I didn't name him, because he wants a private life. He was told what
>: >he was told by Mack. I believe him.
>
>
>:   Of course.  There's always an "explanation".  "He wants his privacy"
>:   "Doesn't want to create a media circus"   "Took it to a lab for
>:   analysis but they <lost it | turned out to be front for the Feds>"
>:   "It was stolen by <unknown | The Feds | MIB>"  "Sure, I'll let you
>:   have a peek at it for $1000"     Et Cetera, Et Cetera!
>
>:   There always an excuse, there's never any physical evidence.

>Actually, peter, there is physical evidence.  But, some self-serving people
>are not that interested in letting the public in on that kind of stuff.
>
>What about the Billy Meir metal samples that were given to Bell labs in
>Europe?  They supposedly had superconducting properties.  They disappeared
>and now look where some of the recent advances in superconducting technology
>came out of.  BELL LABS.
>
>In light of things like this happening, it does not suprise me that some
>people want to keep to themselves.
>
>Besides, peter, even if you had conclusive proof of alien abductions, are
>there any people out there who would listen to you any more than you listen
>to the people who claim to have been abducted but "lack" physical evidence?

  As I said, there's always an excuse!


---peter




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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 00:50:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 25

> Wow! Somebody give Denise a valium! :^o Jeez..liten up already! Maybe Blondie
>was like, out-of-town visiting relatives in December, eh? Why not tell us
>where YOU saw the announcement and how far in advance it was planned. I didnt
>hear about it either...!
>
>
>-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY

Gee aren't you clever (not to mention original) I choose not to lighten
up thank you, Blondie is always spitting out the message ".....why is
___________always ________?" when it isn't always. If Blondie can bitch
and moan so can I. Besides I'll be gone as soon as the Paranet BBs
get going.

As far as the advertisment to the World conference it was posted many
times on this very board. That's where I heard about it. It was in
great detail and was posted well before and up 'till December. I also
have seen posters. I'm surprised no one saw them in Las Vegas.


--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 18:46:58 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Where to purchase "An Alien Harvest"
Lines: 93

I am going to report to you folks later on my impressions and experiences from
the syposium that we just held at Penn State featuring Linda Howe.  Let me just
 say this for now, Linda is a wonderful, beautiful soul who has devoted her
entire life to this phenomenon and I admire her for her dedication.  It is very
hard work.

The reason her book is so expensive is that she has had to publish it herself
in order to get it published with ALL the pictures.  The story would not have
been complete without the illustrations, and no conventional publisher would
touch it in that format and would not have included them.  It has been a long,
hard journey for this book; amazing that the world has it at all.  Recently she
was able to reduce the cost by printing the book in an over-sized paper-back
edition, and even at that, the book is $40.00.
She really is not into this for the money.  She felt that this book must
be published for if it had not, the world would have most certainly dismissed
the entire mutilation phenomena as 'predator' or 'satanic-cult' related.

The reason the book is so hard to find is because there really is no money for
distribution when one publishes independantly.  So, please, print this,
duplicate this information and pass it on.  When organizing the symposium, you
wouldn't believe how many wrote and called me asking for information on this
book.  And, you libraries out there.. how about doing your community a favor
and getting a copy so others who can't afford it can borrow it?  It is truly
a phenomenal book and a definate must-see.

Also, I have more good news.  Linda is working on not one, but two new books
which will be released back to back.  Once again, she is self-publishing, so
the only way you can purchase this is by writing to her directly.  Both of
these books are going to be jam-packed with photos of new mutilations and of
drawings from abductees all over the world who have contacted her.  She
mentioned the title of the new book(s), but I'm sorry, I can't seem to recall
them right at the moment. I must admit, I am still over-whelmed from all that
I have learned at the symposium this past weekend.  I thought I was prepared,
but the stories that were flying, the information that was exchanged by
those attending and coming up to me were simply mind-boggling.  This abduction
phenomenon is definately more wide-spread than I could possibly have imagined.
Well, here is the info:

An Alien Harvest - $40.00 (paper-back)
A Strange Harvest - $30.00 (video)  1 hour version
A Strange Harvest - $50.00 (video) 80 minute version
Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms - $30.00 (video)
      (Hour 1 - 1990 documentary updating animal mutilations, human abductions
       and the hybrid issue)
Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms - $30.00 (video)
      (Hour 2 - TV Studio Q&A about documentary and update on Roswell UFO
       Crash)
A Strange Harvest - $15.00 (transcript)
Cropcircle Communique - $15.00 (transcript) with news and science updates
Cropcircle Communique - $35.00 (video) 75-minute documentary about the
       worldwide crop circle mystery.

Price includes US shipping
International orders please add:
For book, $30 Air Mail, $12 Surface
For Videos or Transcripts, Add $9 Air Mail, $5 Surface.

Check or Money Order to:
Linda Moulton Howe Productions
P.O. Box 538
Huntingdon Valley, PA  19006-0538

* I would imagine Linda would appreciate US currency for those ordering from
other countries.

I would like to help.  Is there anything being done to gather together
volunteers, professionals in the medical or psychological field to help the
abductees?  Most psychologists/psychiatrist aren't prepared to overcome the
blocks and I don't think that all that need the help can afford the fees
that doctors charge.  But these people are in desparate need and I would
like to volunteer to help connect abductees with those who sincerely would like
to help them deal with what they are experiencing.  Is there a database where
this information is being kept (confidentially, I hope)?  These people are
scared and confused.  They are coming to me and I want to do something for
them.

Also, I have a few with possible transmitters, but if they go to a conventional
doctor for removal, the evidence will most likely end up in the trash.  We need
help in this area as well.

I challenge you to come forward and join me.  I challenge you to help and care.

Janet L. Smith
Co-Founder, the Penn State UFO Discussion Group
[e-mail]


123 Ramblewood Road
Pennsylvania Furnace, PA  16865

phone/fax [phone] (after 5:30 pm, EST, please)

Hey, Kumar... I am volunteering you as well!  :)  He is at srk106.psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz)
Subject: Re: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Citicorp TTI
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 01:21:33 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>Gee aren't you clever (not to mention original) I choose not to lighten
>up thank you, Blondie is always spitting out the message ".....why is
>___________always ________?" when it isn't always. If Blondie can bitch
>and moan so can I. Besides I'll be gone as soon as the Paranet BBs
>get going.

 OK..ok..bitch and moan away...the moaning might be best...};-) And you're
*LEAVING*?? Aww...it wasn't what I said was it? Just kidding..actually with
my killfile fixes for winston and kibo this newsgroup is ok.

>
>As far as the advertisment to the World conference it was posted many
>times on this very board. That's where I heard about it. It was in
>great detail and was posted well before and up 'till December. I also
>have seen posters. I'm surprised no one saw them in Las Vegas.
>
 I don't recall seeing it...(?) ah well...good fortune to you Denise and
when is Paranet's BBS going on-line?


-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])[e-mail] *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14522 alt.alien.visitors:14778 alt.religion.kibology:7602
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From: [e-mail] (dolan andrew)
Subject: Re: Atlantis, What Was It Like?
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 02:48:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
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Lines: 4

iPlato wrote about 600 BC, saying that atlantis vanished 9,000 years before his time, making it about 11,600 years ago. Look up yhe story in the Critias and Timaeus.



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: puzzlement.....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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References: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 MAR 93 03:20:54 GMT
Lines: 3

Maybe, the aliens are on a sort of star trek of their own. They notice that our
planet is the only one in our galaxy that supports life and then decide to
investigate further.
Xref: icaen alt.paranet.ufo:88 alt.alien.visitors:14780 alt.conspiracy:24534
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INVASION!!!
Summary: The story of the Millenium
Keywords: stollman, invasion, ufos, clones
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 03:38:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 271


I am posting this to the new alt.paranet.ufo group set up by Mike Corbin
and also to alt.alien.visitors and alt.conspiracy in order to let people
on the net who have followed my story and those who never heard it before
find out about the incredible things I am claiming have happened to me...

For those of you who don't know me, my name is Gary Stollman, and I am the
person who in 1987 jumped onto the live set of KNBC in Los Angeles,
California and held a toy gun to the head of TV Consumer Advocate David
Horowitz and forced him to read a statement about how the CIA and aliens
had replaced my family and friends with clones, and forced me illegally
into many mental hospitals.  Although the original show was pulled off the
air, it made the rounds of other networks after the incident.  I
understand it also made International news and the front pages of many
foreign papers as well.

In that statement I had Horowitz read were examples of information I had
garnered about UFOs, which have been verified to me since then by
independent sources.  One of these concerned the status of so-called
"Hangar 18", the now infamous place in Ufology where bodies of the alien
crash at Roswell had been taken.  I was attending Lively Vo-Tech here in
Tallahassee, Florida in 1984, when my Electronics teacher told me he had
worked at Wright-Patterson AFB, and described to me in detail the kinds of
things going on there.  "Hangar 18", now refered to as the Environmental
Control Building, is one of the most highly guarded buildings on the
planet.  He described to me how guards armed with machine-guns rotate
around the edges of the building with guard dogs, so that as one turns
the corner, another comes around the other side at the same moment, so as
to keep a continual field of view.  Although he did not work in the
building, he knew a clerk who did.  This person told him about the many
alien artifacts contained in the building, and verified that there were
indeed alien bodies in deep freeze therein.  My teacher only relayed this
information to me after I told him of my deep interest in UFOs, and my
terrifying situation at that time.  He told me that he would never admit
to telling me these things in a court of law, as the government could make
things hard for him at his business.  He then told me, surprisingly to me,
that he believed my story, and said he was going down to Orlando to speak
to a friend of his in the military concerning it.  He believed me enough
to work out a password with me, in the event that he himself was replaced.

A few weeks later, after ascertaining that something was definitely wrong
with my instructor, he was indeed replaced.  I know this because when I
asked his clone for the password, he not only didn't know it, I could tell
that he had read my teacher's mind, because he tried to fake his way out
of it.  Although he didn't know what the password was, he knew the first
part, but then tried to infer what the rest of it was from me.  I didn't
say a word, as I knew that my real teacher's life might depend on my
silence.  But once again, I was faced with the fact that someone I had
divulged my experiences to had been replaced.

In case you are wondering by now how this all got started, suffice it to
say that in 1981, I was attending Tallahassee Community College in order
to finish up my AA degree.  Events in my classes led me to believe that
there were people placed in all my classes keeping me under keen
observation for some unknown reasons.  At first I believed these could be
enemies of mine, which had been following me around the entire country for
many years before I ever got to Tallahassee.  These enemies were from
California, where I had moved from New Jersey when I was 10.  In 1973,
while attending Grossmont Community College in San Diego, I began to
notice wierd guys hanging around my apartment building, and following me
around town.  I suspect it all started on a bus trip around the country I
was sent on by my mom when I was 16, which was populated mostly by very
rich kids from Beverly Hills.  I made friends with a girl who some of
these rich guys were stuck on, and she dumped them for me.  After
practically murdering me in a motel room in Williamsburg, Virginia on the
trip, these guys swore they would get even with me if it took them the
rest of their lives.  If you don't think people like this exist, you need
to live in LA for awhile!

Anyways, suffice it to say that despite having incidents occur to me, I
left Grosssmont in the summer of 1974 on a trip around the country to
check out colleges I might be interested in attending, using an
inheritance from my grandmother.  I didn't know anyone was following me at
all, until I stopped to see Shenandoah Caverns in Virginia.  As I was
coming out of the cave tour, I noticed a car from California that I
thought I had seen somewhere before.  not being one to allow anyone to
screw with my life at that time, I stood next to the car and waited.  When
the people who owned the car came out of the tour just behind mine and
started walking toward their car, they saw me standing next to it.
Immediately, they all turned around, and ran into the gift shop.  As I
stood there watching them, it was obvious that they weren't looking for
gifts, but kept staring at me out the windows of the gift shop.  I wanted
to make sure, so I went into the gift shop when they weren't looking, and
stood next to some of them.  One of them asked if I was still there, and
before the other could answer, he noticed me next to them.  A look of
utter terror and hatred came over this person's face, and they just glared
at me.  It was VERY obvious they weren't in the shop to buy gifts.  I went
outside and called the police and asked them to send an officer.  When he
got there, I explained the situation to him, but he told me they had a
convicted murderer on the loose and he didn't have time to check it out.
He offered to give me an escort back to the highway, which I accepted.  As
we were pulling out of the parking lot, the people came tearing out of the
gift shop, jumped into the car and took off in a frenzy in the opposite
direction.

The NEXT time I saw that SAME car was in the underground parking garage of
my parents apartment building back in LA three MONTHS later!!  There was
no mistake, as I have an almost photographic memory, and made sure I would
NEVER forget that license number.  I was enraged, but took no action.
Sure enough, some guys at the apartment started bothering me in the
billiard room not long thereafter.  I became afraid for my parents, and
moved them to another apartment building in West Hollywood, where they
live to this day.  However, people moved in after us, and guys similar to
those began hanging around giving me grief.  I was certain that this was a
huge conspiracy by now, but I didn't know just how huge until I went for
my second trip around the country by myself in 1979.

This time, I knew something of what I was up against.  I had incidences
occur to me in LA which could not be rationalized out, except to conclude
that SOMEBODY had it in for me!  In two SEPARATE incidences, the SAME
truck swerved in front of me on the Santa Monica Freeway, and wouldn't
allow me to pass it.  It came out of the blue, and I had done NOTHING to
warrant an attack by a crazy.  This was the same truck which had done this
to me SIX MONTHS PREVIOUSLY!!  Obviously, I was mad as hell, but luckily
was able to manuveur my car around him before he tried to run me off the
road or something.  I walked into my dads store seething with anger, but
couldn't tell my parents what had happened, as I knew they just wouldn't
understand.  I had many, many similar incidents happen to me out of the
clear blue at various times before I left LA on my trip.

The trip was like a waking nightmare.  At every stop I made, people,
mostly from California, would barge into whatever tourist attraction or
hotel I was at, and start tearing the walls out!!  I am not exagerating,
either!  I took down so many license numbers at totally different places
all over the country that kept reappearing it was unreal!!  I finally lost
them during a hurricane, because I had 4 5-gallon gas cans in my trunk,
and could drive on through the night, while they ran out of gas, as that
was the time when all the gas stations closed on weekends due to the
supposed oil crisis.  Cars were towed off the highway left and right, as I
drove on I-95 from my aunts house in New Jersey to Florida.

Suffice it to say that I made it down to Florida, and lived in peace for
awhile, but my enemies soon caught up with me.  I had people moving in
next door to me again, banging on the walls, and carrying on like nothing
I have ever experienced when around decent God-fearing people.  After
taking it for awhile, I started calling the police at the slightest
provocation.  They wound up getting carted away to jail to party.  I just
tried to ignore it all and get on with my life.  But these bastards were
not about to leave me alone!

This is where the part in Tallahassee comes in.  I honestly didn't know if
it was my enemies in my classes or CIA and FBI agents put there to keep an
eye on me because of my involvement in stealing signons from government
computer systems all over the country between 1977 and 1979.  All I did
know is that SOMETHING REAL FRIGGIN STRANGE was goin' on!!  I had NO
thought of clones at that time, simply that it was people put there to spy
on me and fuck my life up if possible.  When I had one of the women
counselors from the college call up the Sheriffs department, the guy she
talked to said to tell me it was what I was thinking.  I was supposed to
meet him at the court house later that day, and he would have told me what
it was, but due to my stupidity I got sidetracked, and by the time I got
to the court house, that officer had been replaced, although I still
didn't think it was clones, I only knew it was bullshit!

The first time I knew something was wrong in my family was when I started
receiving crazy phone calls from my dad asking me if I remembered some
hotel with crystal staircases and such, as if we had ever been there,
which we hadn't!!  It was obviously crap, and I knew then that my father
was being forced to say that against his will.  It did not occur to me
that if he was being held prisoner somewhere somehow, WHO was running the
store?!  My moms calls also got bizarre to the point where I did not know
what the hell was going on, but knew that something was fucked up big
time!!  I didn't know what to do.  I knew the phones had to be tapped, but
visits to the local phone company office just produced more of the same
kind of bullshit.  It came to a head when I called up my "mom" in a frenzy
and demanded my passport out of their safe-deposit box.  It didn't sound
like my mom somehow, the voice was several octaves deeper.  I have perfect
pitch.  Suddenly, my dad jumped on an extension phone and SCREAMED, "NO,
GARY!! PASSPORTS CAN BE FORGED!!"  Then his line went dead, but my clone
mom said I was too confused and was coming down here.  I suspected it
wasn't my real mom, but had to be sure.

I made sure the following day.  When my "mom" came in the door the voice
was totally different, and the personality was totally different.  I
wanted to be absolutely positive, so when she went to sleep that night, I
tied tons of heavy string around the doorknob to my bedroom that even I
couldn't pull open.  The next morning, my "mom", without even calling to
me, almost took the door off the hinges with one tug!  That was a complete
giveaway, cause my real mom is the most gentle person in the world, and at
the very least would have called to me to ask me why the door wouldn't
open.  I wound up driving away from here into the night in terror!!

The first mental hospital I was forced into was a little one here called
PATH.  The woman counselor at TCC who spoke to the sheriffs deputy refused
to allow me to finish my AA degree unless I went in there.  Like the fool
I am and have been for so long, I did so.  Five minutes after signing
myself in, my dad called me on the pay phone for the patients, and asked
me if I knew if the LINE was being monitored!  I knew right then that was
crap for him to ask that, and after a few more minutes of nonsense like
that he hung up.  Then my sister called.  She told me something I couldn't
believe, that my brother-in-law, who she had just married and who was the
strongest willed guy I had ever known, had just lost his job because of
thinking that people were following him, reading their mail, etc, etc.
The EXACT same kinds of things that had been happening to me.  I asked her
to put him on the phone.  I asked him what the HELL had been happening to
him, but he was so mentally destroyed, he had to give the phone back to my
sister.  When I hung up, I was madder than a March Hare!!  I went up to
the "staff" and asked to see all their id.  They told me they didn't have
to show me their ids.  I then asked to sign myself out of the place.  In
Florida, you can sign yourself INTO a nuthouse, but it is ANOTHER thing to
sign yourself out!!  Thre is a little clause that gives any psychiatrist
who think you shouldn't be released the right to put you on a 48 hour
hold.  The woman shrink there aske me to sign myself back in, and I
adamantly refused and demanded to be released!  She then went into a room
with one of the "staff", and another Eastern-type guy refused to let me
in.  He told me she was deciding on whether to send me over to the main
mental hospital in town here, then called Goodwood.  I immediately jumped
on the pay phone and called a good friend of mine at the FSU computer
center, and told him what was happening and told him to get me a lawyer!!
A few minutes later, two Sheriffs Deputies came into the facility and
escorted me over to Goodwood.  When I got there, I was told I was on a
hold, and if I didn't sign myself in, they would get a court order to hold
me there.  Again, like the fool I was, I signed myself in, as I didn't
know what else to do.

After a few days, the Public Defender, whom my friend had contacted, came
to see me.  He told me that if I didn't cause any hassles, I would be
released in a few more days.  He told me he would get a writ of habeus
corpus if they tried to Baker Act me, which would mean sending me to the
State mental hospital.  I found out later on that this guy was in on it
with them ALL!!  After a few days I was sent back to PATH, and shortly
thereafter released.  But boy, was I ever mad!!  I swore I would sue them
all to high heaven!!  Like a dope, I didn't.  And if I had, I could have
saved myself 10 more years of similar illegal incarcerations, some of
which were done to me by forging my signature on the admission forms.
Some of these records have vanished, but I have obtained most of them,
including the ones here, which were denied to me previously, which is
illegal.  One of the doctors here though, wouldn't release the very first
visit to the nuthouse here.  I am OVERJOYED, believe it or not, because
that is one more CRIME they are ALL going to pay for in court!!

Last year, my mom had a stroke, and is still partially paralyzed.  My
girlfriend was staying with me here at the time, but I had a nervous
breakdown because we didn't know if my mom would live for awhile.  I ran
out into the street, and collapsed.  The first people to reach me were
sincere in trying to help, but a few moments later, they all ran away, and
others took their places.  One of the first to reach me said loudly, "THE
NAME IS ZAPPA!!  FRANK ZAPPA!!!"  After seeing his picture on a record
album, yeh, it was HIM!!  I was placed on a stretcher and taken to
Tallahassee Memorial Emergency Room, and placed in a small room.  After
bullshiting for several minutes, my arms and legs were strapped to the
stretcher by various people.  After another few minutes of seeing who they
could trust, a "doctor" in a blue uniform came in, pulled my shorts and
underpants down, and took a scapel and made a deep incision in my penis in
two places.  I screamed in pain and bled profusely, but NOONE offered me
assistance of any kind or tried to stop it.  I was then wheeled back into
the ambulance, and thrown into Tallahassee Psychiatric Hospital.  I was
left in a small room bleeding for hours.

I have filed a police report now that I am back in town, and am going to
have the scars on my penis verified by doctors, real ones, and then the
FUN is gonna start!!  I STILL have enemies of mine here living in the
apartment complex all around me, but soon they are going to be eating
prison food!!!

Fortunately, there is a good side to all this.  That is that I have
discovered that my enemies were into witchcraft, and that God and Jesus
and all the angels in heaven have just about solved the problem for me
now.  So there is a spiritual side to all this, and not just alien in
nature.  But a good deal of it has been.  I don't know how much longer it
will take, but I am working on a degree from Lively again, this time in
Computer Science.  I will be filing a MAJOR lawsuit in a few months, and I
have the proof of what has been done to me now, so.....

    Gary

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14781 alt.folklore.urban:68329 alt.pagan:29030
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.urban,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: True Bibo Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Derek Tearne)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 02:10:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Fujitsu New Zealand - Software Development Center
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
>
>
>I've never really delved deep into trivia before, but this was amazing:
>
>> QUESTION:  Can anyone confirm that somewhere in a field in the north of
>>England there used to be a sign saying: "Please do not throw stones at
>>this notice"?
>
>I not only can confirm it, but can say exactly where it was: as you come up
>onto the moor from Eldwick Just after the first fence), walking over to
>Ilkley.

I hope you were wearing your hat when you saw this.  And singing.

Derek "Chorus: On Ilkley more ba..." Tearne


--
Derek Tearne.   --   [e-mail]   --    Fujitsu New Zealand   --
Some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Greg Larson)
Subject: Re: Why are all captured aliens male?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: staff.tc.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 06:05:31 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.
>Ei: Ebe and Krll... Do the women up there have the same thing
>pulled on them? Like maybe they get the "safer" jobs of monitoring
>by space while the men go down and risk their butts? One can always
>smell a fake when it looks blatantly chauvanistic.........
>
>                    ^^^^^^^BLONDIE

It seems as though in every abduction book I read, the abductees are
trying to give their captors a gender, even though there appears to be
no logic behind this.  People have a weird fixation on gender --
what's the first thing people ask when someone has a baby -- Is it a
boy or girl?  Since abductees report far more alien fetuses developing
in jars than they do bulging, pregnant aliens, I wouldn't be surprised
if some or most of them do not have genders, or may have lost that
distinction somewhere along the way.  Human beings are moving in that
direction (away from being capable of natural childbirth).


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From: [e-mail] (Jens Peter Reus Christensen)
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Date: 23 Mar 93 10:21:20
Organization: /usr/users/mat/reus/.organization
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: klein.euromath.dk
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 23 Mar 93 03:38:13 GMT


   For those of you who don't know me, my name is Gary Stollman, and I am the
   person who in 1987 jumped onto the live set of KNBC in Los Angeles,
   California and held a toy gun to the head of TV Consumer Advocate David
   Horowitz and forced him to read a statement about how the CIA and aliens
   had replaced my family and friends with clones, and forced me illegally
   into many mental hospitals.  Although the original show was pulled off the
   air, it made the rounds of other networks after the incident.  I
   understand it also made International news and the front pages of many
   foreign papers as well.
  ...

       Gary

   --
   Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
   -----------------------------------------------------------------
         The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
   -----------------------------------------------------------------

*****
Dear friend see a doctor at your earliest convenience!!

|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Jens Peter Reus Christensen   |                           |
|  Associate professor, Dr. Phil.|                           |
|  Department of mathematics     | e-mail:[e-mail]    |
|  University of Copenhagen      |                           |
|  Universitetsparken 5          | phone: [phone]      |
|  DK-2100 Copenhagen            | fax:   [phone]      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Disclaimer: Except when explicitly stated otherwise any   |
|  message with this signature is the authors purely private |
|  responsibility.                                           |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Motto : For everyone who has will be given more, and he   |
|  will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what  |
|  he has will be taken from him.                            |
|  Matthew principle - Matth.Ch.25 v.29                      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|





--
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Jens Peter Reus Christensen   |                           |
|  Associate professor, Dr. Phil.|                           |
|  Department of mathematics     | e-mail:[e-mail]    |
|  University of Copenhagen      |                           |
|  Universitetsparken 5          | phone: [phone]      |
|  DK-2100 Copenhagen            | fax:   [phone]      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Disclaimer: Except when explicitly stated otherwise any   |
|  message with this signature is the authors purely private |
|  responsibility.                                           |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Motto : For everyone who has will be given more, and he   |
|  will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what  |
|  he has will be taken from him.                            |
|  Matthew principle - Matth.Ch.25 v.29                      |
|------------------------------------------------------------|


Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14784 alt.paranormal:6725 sci.skeptic:41172
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From: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 10:34:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Organization: Emergency Third Rail Power Trip
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
>>: =Science and Scientists will always be BEHIND those that have the
>>: =philosophy and the will to manifest thought in a POSITIVE polarity.
>>:
>>: And those who have only philosophy would be grubbing in the ground
>>: with sticks for their food were it not to science and technology.
>>
>>Sticks are technology. ;) The purely philosophical would have become
>>breatharians.  They claim that the need to eat and drink is purely
>>psychosomatic and once you have the proper beleifs, you can live off
>>air and sunlight -- which is even less than plants require.  I
>>actually read that somewhere, and I'm not sure it was a joke.
>
>Actually, I think it requires a significant advancement in your
>spiritual practice before you can do that.  And I think they don't really
>need aid and sunlight... breathing and warmth are somatic as well.
>I think they feed off the infinite energy source of Nirvana or something.
>One things for sure, our greatest technological achievements are pitiful
>compared to one guy who can predict the future with the accuracy of one
>who has already lived through it.
>
>IMHO, the Tibetan Buddhist meditational symbol 'Re' should be emblazoned on
>every surfboard on the Pacific Coast.   Hahahahahahahaha.....
>
>            - Richard Temps, obviously up too late


Well the local person who called himself the "Breatharian" and
claimed to live on sunlight and air, was caught sneaking into
a place where food could be obtained, and was even reported to
have been "chowing down" and all this.

It would take a lot for me to believe that Breatharianism was
possible. There might be/probably is (imo) something to UFO and
cattle mutilation reports BUT most of the stuff like the Breatharian
is really hard to see as other than bunk. Here in Northern California
I have seen many people lay claims to such stuff, but have never
seen even the slightest shred of even the most cirumspect and
generous proof.


            have fun,
            Sends Steve


[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!decwrl!rtech!amdahl!toad.com!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 10:48:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Organization: Emergency Third Rail Power Trip
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    My question is why are aliens always depicted as nude?
>Wouldn't it be prudent to wear protective gear around us humans
>since we have all these germs? Also, in order to have advancement
>there must be a need to overcome some obstacle. For instance,
>why do we wear clothes. Along with the fact that there would be
>a whole lot more children around, we need to protect ourselves
>from elements of the environment. Ei: Cold=sweater,jeans,wolly
>socks,etc... Germy=facemask,apron,gloves,etc... Now if these
>aliens were impervious to germs or the environment then they
>would never have advanced since one of their most fundamental
>survival needs of shelter is already met. So therefore aliens
>must wear clothes, for the simple fact of evolution. Or have
>they gone soo far to not need clothes, but that would cause
>ease of life and therefore no basic challenge. Remember:
>A body at ease will stay at ease unless it figits.
>
>                    ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE


Don't see how this necessarily follows. For example primates are
a strange group, they have high innate curiosity, and the satisfaction
of this curiousity is almost a need. For example primates in zoos
do much better when they have something to muck with and all that.
This seems to happen with humans all the time. If they get their
needs satisfied then they tend to develop other needs.

It might be different for other alien species but it is hard to see
that fighting against some environmental difficulty is an absolute
necessity. To hold such an idea is almost like believing in all those
things Stark Trek considered Universal, like Green Alien Babes in
Tight Outfits who want to ball Captain Kirk. The Universe is full
of these creatures? How can I meet some of them? :)


                Have Fun,
                Sends Steve


[e-mail]

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!amdahl!toad.com!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are all captured aliens male?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 11:41:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Organization: Emergency Third Rail Power Trip
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Greg Larson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>>    Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.
>>Ei: Ebe and Krll... Do the women up there have the same thing
>>pulled on them? Like maybe they get the "safer" jobs of monitoring
>>by space while the men go down and risk their butts? One can always
>>smell a fake when it looks blatantly chauvanistic.........
>>
>>                    ^^^^^^^BLONDIE
>
>It seems as though in every abduction book I read, the abductees are
>trying to give their captors a gender, even though there appears to be
>no logic behind this.  People have a weird fixation on gender --
>what's the first thing people ask when someone has a baby -- Is it a
>boy or girl?  Since abductees report far more alien fetuses developing
>in jars than they do bulging, pregnant aliens, I wouldn't be surprised
>if some or most of them do not have genders, or may have lost that
>distinction somewhere along the way.  Human beings are moving in that
>direction (away from being capable of natural childbirth).
>
>

Well to try to state all of this simply and shortly, the amount of
sexual dimorphism (the amount critters of different sexes in the same
species look different from each other) varies depending on what
species you are talking about. When biologists look at critters of
the same species and say: "This one is female" and "This one is male"
this is called sexing. Some species are easy to sex, some are hard
to sex, applying rules from one species to another doesn't often
work. For example there are species of insects where the female is
the larger, so trying to apply say gorilla sexing rules to insects
would lose. So if the putative aliens don't tell you, or have some
way of asssuring genetic diversity other than sexual reproduction then
you might not never know and just assume that they were males.

Furthermore because we are interested in the sex of humans for a
variety of reasons, we develop an ability to tell the sexes apart,
and humans overall are only moderately sexually dimorphic. We throw
in a whole set of cues, like for example hair length, differences
in dress etc. to make this easy. Although many socities throw out
one easy cue by having mean shave off their beard. But with clean
shaven men people still make mistakes. People often call a friend
of mine "he" when they see her from behind because she has a punker
hairdo and has very broad shoulders for someone female. If she had
smaller breasts she might confuse even more people. In other critters
it is even worse, you have to find and look at the sex organs to
tell. So one should be careful about assigning sex to non-human critters
and when it comes to putative aliens all bets are off.


            Have Fun,
            Sends Steve


[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 23 Mar 1993 12:22:48 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
=Really, your negativity astounds me.

I wish I could say that your gullibility astound me, but since it's such a
staple of new-agers, it doesn't.

=I will not react to your comments; they
=they were rather abrasive and rude.

And I find your nearly incredibile gullibility offensive.  If I tone down my
abrasiveness, will you tone down your gullibility?

=I do take issue with you for
=calling my material 'bullshit', 'claptrap', and telling me to catch
=a clue.

Well, you made a rather astoundingly stupid claim.  Suppose you tell us what
new-age beliefs are younger than science?  Please be specific.

=This is an international forum, and I dont think such senseless
=flames have a place here.

Sci.skeptic is an international forum.  Claims that the new-age mysticism is
something new don't have a place here unless you're willing (as you apparently
are not) to back up those claims with specific aspects of the new-age claptrap
that aren't simply warmed-over religion from millenia ago.

=Tone that post down a bit, and I will gladly
=respond to any critiques/concerns you may have with what I have to say.

Start providing evidence for your claims and I'll tone down my posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14788 alt.paranormal:6727 sci.skeptic:41177
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 23 Mar 1993 12:30:58 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
=>=According to Jacques Vallee, you can even get a
=>=government license to be a douser in Russia.
=>
=>To whomever wondered at the claim that Russia was now being inundated with lots
=>of phony psychics:  Please take note.
=
=Well, the United States has been inundated with phony psychics a lot longer
=than they have.  Note however that the implication is there that if there
=are phony psychics, there are real ones as well.

Wherever do you get that idea?  Using your argument, we can conclude that
if there are phony perpetual motion machines, there are real ones as well.
It could well be (and all the evidence seems to indicate that this is the case)
that ALL psychics are phony.  At least, I've never heard of any evidence that
any particular psychic is real.

=First of all, I dont believe in coincidence or luck.

Gee.  That means that if someone tosses a fair coin ten times and it comes up
heads every time, that MUST be due to psychic powers, right?  Well, I've got
news for you:  The laws of probability say that this will happen, on average,
in one of 2048 such experiments.  In other words, the laws of probability don't
just allow coincidences, they DEMAND them.  Of course, if it gives you a warm
fuzzy feeling to ascribe coincidence to psychic powers, nobody and nothing is
going to be able to persuade you otherwise, and you might as well stop posting
to sci.skeptic.

=As for the claim that all
=psychic powers are based on coincidence, you might want to research more on
=the subject of 'psychic powers' before you make that claim.  It would be
=interesting to see how you could explain things like telekinesis away to
=coincidence.

I didn't say that ALL so-called "psychic powers" are based on coincidence.  At
least some such claims are based on fraud.  Suppose you tell us of some
specific, well-documented cases supporting your claims?  (Remember?  I asked
you for just this sort of thing in a previous post, and you still haven't
answered.  At this point, I'm inclined to believe that you simply don't know of
any such cases, and are relying on rumor to support your delusions).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen alt.paranet.ufo:93 alt.alien.visitors:14789 alt.conspiracy:24550
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 13:03:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Lines: 14
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

This sucks....................I thought this group was formed to ixnay this
sort of f**king crap.

!@#$%^&*()_!@#$%^&*()_!@#$%^&*()_+!@#$%^&*()++_)(*&^%$#@!@#$%^&*((*&^%$#@#$
$%^&*I(O)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$| The
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,| Nite
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."                  | Net
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$|
Knight
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!mcsun!marble.uknet.ac.uk!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!sbsb1mjd
From: [e-mail] (Mike Dear)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 12:42:43 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 24

Does anyone have any information on the so called Men In Black
I think that i may have been visited by one.
I'd be interested to hear from anyone with a similar experience.
E- mail me on [e-mail]
--

                           ___====-_  _-====___
                     _--^^^#####//      \\#####^^^--_
                  _-^##########// (    ) \\##########^-_
                 -############//  |\^^/|  \\############-
               _/############//   (@::@)   \\############\_
              /#############((     \\//     ))#############\
             -###############\\    (oo)    //###############-
            -#################\\  / ** \  //#################-
           -###################\\/      \//###################-
          _#/|##########/\######(   /\   )######/\##########|\#_
          |/ |#/\#/\#/\/  \#/\##\  |  |  /##/\#/  \/\#/\#/\#| \|
          '  |/  V  V  '   V  \#\| |  | |/#/  V   '  V  V  \|  '
             '   '  '      '   / | |  | | \   '      '  '   '
                              (  | |  | |  )
                             __\ | |  | | /__
                            (vvv(VVV)(VVV)vvv)

                               Michael Dear
Xref: icaen soc.culture.usa:13062 alt.conspiracy:24555 alt.alien.visitors:14791
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From: [e-mail] (Robyn McNamara)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: US-Culture: Does UFO-guy's eat strawberry ice-cream ?
Date: 23 Mar 1993 13:25:51 GMT
Organization: Zikzak Public Access UNIX, Melbourne Australia
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <1on34v$[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: zikzak.apana.org.au
Keywords: Ebe from Zeti Reticuli tells his story !

[e-mail] (Simon Hieronymus Laub) writes:

>He has hardened skin for the same reason. His species
>comes in both males and females ...
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Shock! Horror! Bisexual Aliens From Zeta Reticuli!

--
Robyn A. McNamara                                           The Cosmic Froggy
                          [e-mail]
"...blankets and bedclothes, the child of the mountain..." - Simon & Garfunkel
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!rulway.LeidenUniv.nl!ruls41.LeidenUniv.nl!sirius
From: [e-mail] (Wonontshijn)
Subject: Slander!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: abduction, true story from alien visitor
Sender: [e-mail] (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Nntp-Posting-Host: ruls41.leidenuniv.nl
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Wonontshijn)
Organization: Society for the Evolution of Backward Solar Systems
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 13:33:04 GMT
Lines: 41

Hello.

We finally managed to break into a USENET machine, so that we can
express our point of view.

I hope you people are a little more open minded than most humans,
in the sense that you will (hopefully) listen to the other side
of the story of the alien abductions.

We are what you call aliens from the Sirius region. However, it
strikes us that you humans seem to think 'aliens' is 1 category
of extraterrestrial beings, whereas (of course) there are more
than one kind.

Given the fact that humans have little experience in space
communications we can understand this ignorance. We forgive
you.

However, it would be considered polite not to confuse us anymore with
the muons from the HR 8684 region, which are 3rd class beings that
sometimes abduct humans in order to do what you call 'antropological'
research.

These muons are the beings responsible for the abduction of people
like John Winston and others. I assure you they mean no harm, but we
will nevertheless take measure against it. We have been informed that
the psychological reactions Humans have when they are 'abducted' are
quite violent, and lead to paranoid and / or schizoid hallucinations.
That is why all those horror stories about alien abductions simmer
over USENET.

Please be gentle with each other. You earth people are reaching the
evolutionary level required to enter as members of the Intergalactic
community in the next 20,000 years. Don't spoil it for yourself with
intergalactic slander.

    Wonontshijn
    Sirius



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!udel!gvls1!tredysvr!cellar!dbt
From: [e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FILE: ALABAMA CATTLE MUTILATIONS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 12:06:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 22

[e-mail] (TODD MOORE) writes:

>
> I believe that aliens are taking just what they need to clone a half
>
>
> breed between our 2 races because their alien life form cannot
>
> survive in our atmosphere. this is my Hypothesis
>
> sincerely Todd Moore [e-mail]


Half Cow -- Half Alien!
And When It Moo'ed, the Whole World Shook!
It's
BOSSIETRON, THE BOVINE FROM BELLATRIX
The World is Its PASTURE ... and Mankind Its GRASS!

------
[e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
The Cellar BBS - [phone]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!udel!gvls1!tredysvr!cellar!dbt
From: [e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 12:14:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 28

[e-mail] writes:

>
>     My question is why are aliens always depicted as nude?
> Wouldn't it be prudent to wear protective gear around us humans
> since we have all these germs? Also, in order to have advancement
> there must be a need to overcome some obstacle. For instance,
> why do we wear clothes. Along with the fact that there would be
> a whole lot more children around, we need to protect ourselves
> from elements of the environment. Ei: Cold=sweater,jeans,wolly
> socks,etc... Germy=facemask,apron,gloves,etc... Now if these
> aliens were impervious to germs or the environment then they
> would never have advanced since one of their most fundamental
> survival needs of shelter is already met. So therefore aliens
> must wear clothes, for the simple fact of evolution. Or have
> they gone soo far to not need clothes, but that would cause
> ease of life and therefore no basic challenge. Remember:
> A body at ease will stay at ease unless it figits.
>
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE

I think there is a simpler explanation:

Aliens don't wear clothes because they don't believe in God.

------
[e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
The Cellar BBS - [phone]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!psinntp!isc-newsserver!rit!moscom!mz
From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 13:05:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
Lines: 42
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

Stuff randomly deleted from this post -----

Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar) writes:
: >Peter Nelson ([e-mail]) wrote:

: >: >>  And that's they way it is with all these artifact claims.  They
: >: >>  evaporate the closer you look.
: >: >>
: >: >
: >: >Well, I didn't name him, because he wants a private life. He was told what
: >: >he was told by Mack. I believe him.
: >
: >What about the Billy Meir metal samples that were given to Bell labs in
: >Europe?  They supposedly had superconducting properties.  They disappeared
: >and now look where some of the recent advances in superconducting technology
: >came out of.  BELL LABS.
: >
: >In light of things like this happening, it does not suprise me that some
: >people want to keep to themselves.
: >
:   As I said, there's always an excuse!


: ---peter

Can you blame them for not wanting to "give up" their physical evidence.
I believe that if you got in touch with Jesse Long, it should not be that
difficult, maybe you could get what you are looking for.

Personally, being a skeptical believer, I think nothing less than something
like UFOs landing on the White House lawn will convince everyone of the
existance of aliens.

Matthew Zenkar

[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 13:07:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
Lines: 29
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

[e-mail] wrote:

:     My question is why are aliens always depicted as nude?
: Wouldn't it be prudent to wear protective gear around us humans
: since we have all these germs? Also, in order to have advancement
: there must be a need to overcome some obstacle. For instance,
: why do we wear clothes. Along with the fact that there would be
: a whole lot more children around, we need to protect ourselves
: from elements of the environment. Ei: Cold=sweater,jeans,wolly
: socks,etc... Germy=facemask,apron,gloves,etc... Now if these
: aliens were impervious to germs or the environment then they
: would never have advanced since one of their most fundamental
: survival needs of shelter is already met. So therefore aliens
: must wear clothes, for the simple fact of evolution. Or have
: they gone soo far to not need clothes, but that would cause
: ease of life and therefore no basic challenge. Remember:
: A body at ease will stay at ease unless it figits.

:                     ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Aliens are not always depicted as nude.

Matthew Zenkar

[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (chris Loeckel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: >UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 14:54:30 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 3

....ah, praireshit, everybody.

quitcher bitchin', folx
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!clam.rutgers.edu!loeckel
From: [e-mail] (chris Loeckel)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: >A challenge...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 14:55:43 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 1

be careful, u may end up like travis walton. :)
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 15:09:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 23

>
> OK..ok..bitch and moan away...the moaning might be best...};-) And you're
>*LEAVING*?? Aww...it wasn't what I said was it? Just kidding..actually with
>my killfile fixes for winston and kibo this newsgroup is ok.
>
> I don't recall seeing it...(?) ah well...good fortune to you Denise and
>when is Paranet's BBS going on-line?
>
>
>-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY

Sorry all for my bitchy responses lately, I've been working way too many
hours. Don't mean to take it out on you guys. Sorry :-(

Paranet is going online as we speak. Mike has posted a list of BB names
maybe he can do it again as soon as they're all set up. The abduction
board is going already.

--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Message?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 16:36:03 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    Paul...
>
>        You ask if the real message is that our government
>    is screwing us and what can we do about it... I say shoot
>    all the politicians and set up an anarchical system.

An "anarchical system"???

>    Finally, freedom for all!
>
>                    ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Shay Barsabe)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop Circles
Date: 23 Mar 1993 16:57:34 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
Lines: 10
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Shay Barsabe)
NNTP-Posting-Host: ebmandoc9.ebay.sun.com

One of the crop icons shown on Sightings looked
rather like a diagram of the starship Enterprise
as seen from above. (In fact, it was unmistakably
the starship Enterprise.)

Some of my distant UK relatives in their cups and
having a great time? (Shouldn't drive tractors
after too much brew.)

-- In the Pits
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From: [e-mail] (Neuromancer)
Subject: Re: Space People's Advice About Nuclear Energy.
Organization: Cyberspace
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 05:56:05 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich 'mcmxciibo' Holmes) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (special agent finerty) writes:
>
>>anyone who believes that human beings are actually capable of destroying
>>all life on an entire planet is an egotistical closed minded and very
>>ignorant person.
>
>OK, we can't. But BARNEY CAN!

Only if we don't get him first....

I propose the development of the ICBBB (InterContinental Ballistic Barney
Blaster), a first strike weapon of formidable power and impressive destructive
capabilities (not to mention lots of blinking lights - you've _got_ to have
lots of blinking lights).  It's only purpose - to get Barney before he gets
us, preferrably by rendering him into a fine purple paste(*).

Neuro
{@ibo rides again - hi ho strn - away!!}

*suitable for calorie reduced diets
--
--------------------- All comments and opinions are my own --------------------
Bryan Fullerton aka Neuromancer                         Computer Variables, Inc
[e-mail]                         155 East Beaver Creek, Unit 27
uunet.ca!comspec!cspace!neuro            Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada L4B 2N2
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 12:45:26 EST
From: JOKER <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) says:
>
>I am posting this to the new alt.paranet.ufo group set up by Mike Corbin
>and also to alt.alien.visitors and alt.conspiracy in order to let people
>on the net who have followed my story and those who never heard it before
>find out about the incredible things I am claiming have happened to me...
>
     Thanks a lot.


>For those of you who don't know me, my name is Gary Stollman, and I am the

     Hi Gary

**(Stuff deleted about how he told his story to one of his teachers)******


>A few weeks later, after ascertaining that something was definitely wrong
>with my instructor, he was indeed replaced.  I know this because when I
>asked his clone for the password, he not only didn't know it, I could tell
>that he had read my teacher's mind, because he tried to fake his way out
>of it.  Although he didn't know what the password was, he knew the first
>part, but then tried to infer what the rest of it was from me.  I didn't
>say a word, as I knew that my real teacher's life might depend on my
>silence.  But once again, I was faced with the fact that someone I had
>divulged my experiences to had been replaced.
>

     Well, gee, I can understand your anger, and - hey, wait a minute!
     Gary, you fool! You just told everyone about your experiences!
     Now were ALL going to be replaced!
     Thanks a lot........

                                          Jimmy V.

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 18:56:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Bat quarter
Lines: 60


     In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (JOKER) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) says:
> >
> >I am posting this to the new alt.paranet.ufo group set up by Mike Corbin
> >and also to alt.alien.visitors and alt.conspiracy in order to let people
> >on the net who have followed my story and those who never heard it before
> >find out about the incredible things I am claiming have happened to me...
> >
>      Thanks a lot.
>
>
> >For those of you who don't know me, my name is Gary Stollman, and I am the
>
>      Hi Gary
>
> **(Stuff deleted about how he told his story to one of his teachers)******
>
>
> >A few weeks later, after ascertaining that something was definitely wrong
> >with my instructor, he was indeed replaced.  I know this because when I
> >asked his clone for the password, he not only didn't know it, I could tell
> >that he had read my teacher's mind, because he tried to fake his way out
> >of it.  Although he didn't know what the password was, he knew the first
> >part, but then tried to infer what the rest of it was from me.  I didn't
> >say a word, as I knew that my real teacher's life might depend on my
> >silence.  But once again, I was faced with the fact that someone I had
> >divulged my experiences to had been replaced.
> >
>
>      Well, gee, I can understand your anger, and - hey, wait a minute!
>      Gary, you fool! You just told everyone about your experiences!
>      Now were ALL going to be replaced!
>      Thanks a lot........
>
>                                           Jimmy V.

     Don't answer to him Jimmy, he (Gary) has been replaced.  Sigh!!! I might
be too late.  Jimmy V. might have been replaced too.  How about a little
philosopy for all of you to think about:

     Last night, I dreamed that I was a clone who is dreaming that he is
replacing the real me.  And now I don't know if I am the real me or I'm the
clone who is still dreaming that he is the real me.

     Or:

     Last night, I dreamed that I was a bat who dreams that he is batman.  Now
I don't know if I am really Batman or if I'm the bat who is dreaming that he
is Batman.

     Well, off to contemplate some more...




                              ^^-^^



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!news.weeg.uiowa.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Al Jagnow)
Subject: Re: Message?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: politicians, anarchy
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: al.weeg.uiowa.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Al Jagnow)
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 19:26:05 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
writes:
>     Paul...
>
>         You ask if the real message is that our government
>     is screwing us and what can we do about it... I say shoot
>     all the politicians and set up an anarchical system.
>     Finally, freedom for all!
>
>                     ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE

I like the thought... Perhaps it would be better to load the politicians on a
rocket and send them as 'ambassadors' to a far galaxy - or maybe a nearby star.
I'm not sure about a 'system' of anarchy?

Al
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: SIGH!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 19:32:59 GMT
Lines: 24

    Denise,

        First off when I ask "...why is ______always____?"
    I mean it in pure innocence. I know, I shouldn't use the
    word always, I'll do my best not to do it again. It's
    a bad and immature habit of mind. Sorry. Sometimes I
    get a little hare in the wrong place and I ask some
    off the wall question, I'll try to cut down on that too.

        Second, I didn't know how to use the newsnet before
    January so I didn't have UFO info access there. I also
    do not get out much because of my knees... They didn't
    advertise it on the local news either. And then I went
    on vacation and that really screwed things over.

        Thirdly, I apologize for some of my all-
    encompassing remarks but please don't be mean and flame
    me for it. Just point it out when I goof up. I am able
    of taking constructive critism, but not destructive
    and vindictive flamers.

        Thankyou.

                    ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz)
Subject: Re: Message?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: politicians, anarchy
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Citicorp TTI
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 20:25:23 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Al Jagnow) writes:
                     (in response to Blondie's "shoot the Politicians" note)

>I like the thought... Perhaps it would be better to load the politicians on a
>rocket and send them as 'ambassadors' to a far galaxy - or maybe a nearby star.
>I'm not sure about a 'system' of anarchy?
>
>Al

 Send them along with the telephone sanitizers and hair dressers eh? :-) And
FYI: "Anarchy; it's better than no government at all!" never been to a Biker
Party I can tell...anarchy quickly becomes a system of survival of the meanist.

 I dunno about sending our garbage into space, it might just piss the aliens
off! Maybe we ought to just tell the politicians that we're sending them to
the sun, hey yeah! To uhmm.."Establish diplomatic relations with the Solarians!"..yeah! That's the ticket! :-)


-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])[e-mail] *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
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From: [e-mail] (Fogbound Child)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Help me debunk Bob Lazar UFO theory
Date: 23 Mar 1993 12:33:58 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

[e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:

>Fogbound Child writes:
>>Pop.Mech also, if my memory serves me, had a picture of the "secret nuclear
>>plane" (or, rather, artist renditions thereof) long before it was proven
>>to be a very unsucessful program, that certainly never had flying hardware.

>As a nit-picky point, the US developed an x-plane with a nuclear power
>plant.  Any aircraft book worth it's weight has this info in it.

>Granted it's not the same plane that PM showed, but it did exist.


I'd like to continue this discussion, but I have been told that it would
not be in my best interests.


>Rob U
>--
>-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
>-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
>-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
>-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
--
_________Pratice Safe .Signature! Prevent Dangerous Signature Virii!_______
Guildenstern: Our names shouted in a certain dawn ... a message ... a
              summons ... There must have been a moment, at the beginning,
              where we could have said -- no. But somehow we missed it.
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From: [e-mail] (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: Space People's Advice About Nuclear Energy.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: rac3.wam.umd.edu
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 20:45:23 GMT
Lines: 13


Well, while I would think we could not wipe out ALL life-forms on this planet,
humans are certainly capable of producing a mass extinction of species
on the scale that would make previous mass extinctions look like a hiccup.
Yes, bacteria some plant and animal life would be left.
However you would have lots of extinction high on the 'food chain' particularyly
with a wide-spread neuclear war. Not to mention if the war were and all out
ABC one.. (Atomic, biological, chemical)

Heck, look at the current estimated species extinction rate, which is just
a by-product of spreading technology and poor management and planning...
Jaguar
going extinct
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From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 20:53:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    My question is why are aliens always depicted as nude?
>Wouldn't it be prudent to wear protective gear around us humans

Maybe they are?  I always heard that the Grays were actually gray because
that was like the color of their elastic, skin-like protective gear ...
I heard that they were actually brown underneath.  Anyone else have some
more hard info than I do?

                - Richard Temps
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From: [e-mail] (A Richard Temps)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: More little contribution to this place...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Mar 93 21:01:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: Academic Computing Services, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (ELMAR VOGT) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>>I believe it exists for most of the things we observe today; but things
>>like that become pretty useless on the level of quantum mechanics, from
>>what I know.
>Don't get caught in that trap!
>Conservation laws like that for momentum, energy, charge, etc. are
>DEFINITELY THE ONLY ONES that STILL hold in Quantum mechanics. As a matter
>of fact, most of modern QM found on the assumption, that these laws still
>hold true.
>    yours, Elmar

True, but then why can't scientists find the exact position of an electron,
if it's all a simple matter of energy and momentum...  Just compare the
number of theories with the number of laws in physics today, and I think you
get my drift.

Now, what about that universal field theorem?  Wait, I think one of those
is coming up.... a good one too....

                        - Richard Temps


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From: [e-mail] (Howard Berkey)
Subject: iPlato, bigfootb philosopher
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 22:37:28 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (dolan andrew) writes:
>iPlato wrote about 600 BC, saying that atlantis vanished 9,000 years


Was this iPlato the bigfootf?





--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                           [e-mail]
            Life is just one transition
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
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From: [e-mail] (Rich 'mcmxciibo' Holmes)
Subject: Re: Space People's Advice About Nuclear Energy.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 23 Mar 1993 05:56:05 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 16:18:05 EST
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Neuromancer) writes:

>I propose the development of the ICBBB (InterContinental Ballistic Barney
>Blaster), a first strike weapon of formidable power and impressive destructive
>capabilities (not to mention lots of blinking lights - you've _got_ to have
>lots of blinking lights).  It's only purpose - to get Barney before he gets
>us, preferrably by rendering him into a fine purple paste(*).

"Who put eight whole Barneys in that little bitty can?..." Hmm, this
may have marketing potential.

--
- Rich "mcmxciibo" Holmes
"Grown men, he told himself, in flat contradiction of centuries of
accumulated evidence about the way grown men behave, do not behave
like this." -- Douglas Adams
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: FUNNY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 23:37:27 GMT
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    What's sooo funny is that I was getting tired of flames
from here that I went to alt.flames to get a little field
instruction. I've been there for about three weeks and
no one has flamed me yet! Maybe they see the way I'm burnt
here and they take pity on me....This is wierd!

                ^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Where *is* the Alleged Implant? (was: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>
>>>>I contacted someone that was involved in Dr. Mack's abduction group,
>>>>and he told me that Mack had collected 2 implants, and that so far,
>>>>studies of them were inconclusive.
>>>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>>  I see.  "Someone" said this.   Anyway a year ago I tried to track
>>>  down the claims that Mack had artifacts but they reached a dead end.
>>>
>>>  And that's they way it is with all these artifact claims.  They
>>>  evaporate the closer you look.
>>>
>> [e-mail] (Jeff):
>>
>>Well, I didn't name him, because he wants a private life. He was told what
>>he was told by Mack. I believe him.
>
> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson):
>
>  Of course.  There's always an "explanation".  "He wants his privacy"
>  "Doesn't want to create a media circus"   "Took it to a lab for
>  analysis but they <lost it | turned out to be front for the Feds>"
>  "It was stolen by <unknown | The Feds | MIB>"  "Sure, I'll let you
>  have a peek at it for $1000"     Et Cetera, Et Cetera!
>
>  There always an excuse, there's never any physical evidence.

Actually, this was discussed at the "Abduction Conference at M.I.T." last
year. A certain "UFO abductee" who lives in Schenectady, NY gave half
of his alleged "implant" to a physicist at a certain prestigious technological
institute located along the banks of the Charles River, near Boston. The
physicist probably realized at once that this is no 'alien machinery',
but rather some item of biological origin such as a sliver, a thorn, or
other foreign object that physicists are not exactly trained to recognize.
However, this physicist also realized that he'd look like a screwball if
he were to ask a colleague in the biological sciences for help in
identifying an alleged 'alien artifact', *or* if any of his physics
colleagues realized what he was up to, so he has basically sat on this
thing for two years or more. Which pisses off the alleged "abductee"
greatly, who was complaining about it to everyone he'd meet.

I would tell you all about this, were I not sworn to silence by the
most fearsome of oaths. And in any case, the proceedings of the conference
are slowly working their way toward publication, so you can Read
All About it there.


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

         "Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism"

                             - Heidi Hartmann and Amy Bridges,
                       quoted by Catharine MacKinnon above the first chapter
                       of her "Toward a Feminist Theory of the State"

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: ABDUCTION?
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    I have a somewhat personal question:

    Has any abductee reported any tests conducted by aliens
that consists of having the abductee manipulate an L shaped
metal rod, bluish in color. EI: in cartesian coordinates with
the y-axis up-down, x-axis forward-back, and z-axis side-side.
The long end of L is on y-axis, the short end is on x-axis.
The L is rotated so that tips  of long and short ends touch x-axis
in a 30-60-90 triangle. Something happens. Flash of white light
perhaps? This is important to me so no jokes please. Anybody
have any info?

                    ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
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From: [e-mail] (Elisabeth R. Hagen)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Tue, 23 Mar 1993 03: 38:13 GMT
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Can you spell PARANOIA? This guy's nuts!
--
Betsy Hagen
[e-mail]
     This .sig is currently evolving. Please stand by.
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 19:16:44 EST
From: Senthil Ramas Kumar <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Report: Linda Moulton howe at Penn State
Lines: 196

Hi folkx: I have put down a general overview of the what Linda Howe talked
about, in her presentation, here at Penn State.  Please note that the
following are, at best, my _interpretations_ of what she actually said, so I
could be slightly wrong in certain areas.  I have done my best to write down
what ever I remembered after the presentation.

I hope u all find it of some use.

I wish to thank Janet and Mike in helping me out write this thing.

Kumar   [ all errors, typos etc are my own]

.

Below, is a general overview of what went on in the Linda Mouton Howe
symposium at Penn State.

Linda Moulton Howe first started to speak about the crop circle phenomena.
Crop circles have apparently been formed of many shapes and sizes, in
corn, paddy, potato and wheat fields.

She also showed pictures depicting the differences in the cell structures
of the plants inside and outside the crop circle. The affected plants had
in their cell structure, a non-random uniform distribution of what appeared
in the photograph to be dots [There was a technical term for this, which
I dont remember]. A picture was also shown which showed marked striations
on the leaf structure, an effect which would be obtained by exposure to
intense heat for a very short period. Plants inside the circle showed
a bending at the nodes, which it seems is abnormal in normal plants.

Plants which were planted from the affected seeds within the circle showed
a significantly improved growth rate.

The presence of an intensive heat is not only seen in the microscopic
structure of the plant cells, but also the in the ground charecteristics,
within the circle.

In a few cases, the ground outside the circle was such that, when walking
through them, the moist soil would adhere to the shoe's soles, but as soon
as the person entered into the circle, s/he found it to be dry and arid.
The same seems to case in a circle found in a potato field. All the plants
inside the circle seem to have been charred. The farmer's assistant
suspected this phenonmenon to be of some chemical origin, but was later found
to be heat induced.

None of the plants seem to exhibit dehydration characteristics, so I wonder
what kind of a heat effect was involved such that the plants cells showed
no loss in water content, but the ground characteristics were significantly
altered with respect to the water content. [I forgot to ask her this]

There has been much talk about the sightings of unidentified crafts and lights
near the crop circles. We had the opportunity to see one such footage.
This was quite a long video clip [3-4 min.], which clearly showed an object
at very low levels, traversing the crop circle. The crop circle in question
was enormously large in comparison to the object. The clippage was in daylight,
most probably in the evening, as the lighting wasn't too good. But one
could easily attest to the fact that there was indeed a unidentified object,
at close proximity to the crop circle. The unidentified object in question
was roundish in shape and white-grey-white in color.

Another interesting video clip we saw was that a crop circle consisting of a
Madelbrot set.

Professionals in the UFO business are obviously wary of attempts to lead
them astray, and this is more true with respect to the  crop circle
phenomena.

Linda Howe told us that the presence of so called "buck-shot" like things
nearby to the actual crop circle was indicative of it's authenticity.
The "buck-shots" just seemed like very small mini circles in the proximity
of the actual larger circles. I would estimate the ratio of the radii to be
around 1:100, if not greater. The buck-shots look slightly bigger than a
point in the photograph that we were shown. Of the couple of phographs that
we were shown, the number of buck-shots was between 4-7.

Another interesting case was the presence of a dead porcupine, in the midst
of a crop circle. According to her description, [no pictures were shown]
the porcupine was apparently flattened out onto the ground, with a maximum
thickness of about 3 inches. Its legs were spread out. Examination of the
cellular structure of the porcupine seems to have indicated an exposure to
intense heat.

At this point Linda Howe very nicely turned the focus of her presentation
to the cattle mutilation aspect of the UFO phenomena. She showed us quite a
few pictures of mutilated animals [mostly cows]. All of them showed the
typical mutilation features; neat precise and blood-less cuts, usually at
the genitals, rectum, or at the mouth.

One particluar photograph, showed a calf, mutilated at its mouth. One could
see the jaw bone, with 4-5 teeth missing. The bone appeared to be
deviod of any traces of flesh, and very dry, something one would expect
after a long period of exposure to the natural elements.

Linda Howe showed us photographs showing us enlarged views [400 x] of the
cellular structure near the mutilated parts. Of particluar interest was the
haemoglobin, which showed clear signs of intense heat activity.

Because of the intense heat activity near the mutilated regions and also
the absolute absence of any traces of blood, it is
postulated that the tool used for mutilation purposes is the laser. We were
shown a video clippage, in which an expert [dont remember his name] said
that mobile laser were a very expensive affair, and that there availability,
especially in surgery, has only been so in the more recent years, wheras
the mutilations have been going on in times, much before such technological
advances. This then, rules out the possibilities of Satanic cults and their
ilk.

She said that even though cattle might have died in suspicious circumstances,
numerous times, no autopsy etc was done, and the farmer would simply do
away with the dead cow, by burying it as soon as s/he could. She told us of
one instance in which she asked the farmer to dig up the cow again. The cow
showed the classic mutilation syndrome. She took samples from the mutilated
area. The tissues, then later showed clear signs of heat treatment.
One interesting way to preserve a sample, in the absence of the proper
preserving solution, was to use a 50-50 mixture of alcohol and water, so
she said.

She said that she had been recently to Alabama to investigate the recent
spate of mutilation activites there.


BREAK: At this point we all took a 15 minute break.

Linda Howe now went into the abduction scenario. She told us that she does
deal with people who have been abducted, but only those who have conscious
memory of the abduction.

On the topic of implants: we got the story of this guy, who along with his
brother at the age of approximately 5 years, saw this strange creature.
After this happened to them, this guy had some kind of a scar on his left
leg. Examination of the leg, did reveal some kind of a foreign substance,
but he was adviced to just leave it alone. At a later stage, he then decided
to get it out by operating on it. The supposed implant was approximately
1 cm in length, and was conical in shape. It looked like a piece of
transparent glass [picture shown with the supposed implant being held in
the hand]. SEM analysis was carried out of this implant, and its structure
is in no way similiar to that of glass, as we know it. From the photograph,
that was shown to the audience, it seemed to me, as if the external structure
was similiar to that of a coral. The person in question seems to have been
having abduction experiences from the age of 5.

We were shown color sketches done by various abductees, and the type of
aliens varied from the standard Greys, to tall humanoid forms [6-7 feet],
and also the Preying Mantis looking alien. Another interesting fact I heard
was the abduction case of a woman, whose abductor was a 7 foot alien, who
had the classic big round eyes. At some point the alien seems to have removed
what seemed like some kind of a covering for the eye, and beneath which were
the actual eyes, with vertical slits. She speculated that the big black
round eye feature in aliens could very well be just a protective covering
over the real eyes.

We were also shown a video clip of Bob Lazar, where we can see him talking
about what he thinks he saw in S-4 at Area-51.

Linda Moulton Howe told us that her own brother used to be in the Air Force
[no time referance given], and from what I heard, it seemed as if he was
stationed somewhere near the Washington area, near to a nuclear missle
launching site. One night a UFO seems to have appeared near the missle site
and was seen to hower near one particular missle silo. Air Force jets were
scrambled, and Linda Howe's brother was to be flying one of the jets.
Later the next day, they authorites found that the target as set in the
missle head was altered.

She also remarked a little about the Travis Walton abduction case, and said
that she objected strongly to the way the entire story had been portrayed in
the moive, and asked us strongly to read the original case, and get the
facts straight for ourselves.

Later on, we had a question answer question, and Linda Howe speculated about
the favourite conspiracy theories. She admitted that at this stage such
theories were just a matter of speculation.

Some _possible_ alien technology that could have come from aliens,
according to her are: Velcro, and fiber optics.

She seems to be leaning towards the theory that the alien phenomenon is
of multi-dimensional origin.


Some additional info from Mike [MSC118@PSUVM]


1) Crop circles.....One of the things I found interesting was the slide she
displayed that showed 5 new geometric theroms that had come about while
analyzing the crop circles.  I don't know if they were the only 5...or if she
just picked 5 because they fit on the slide easier.
  I'm not to sure any hoaxters at a pub could do what geometery hasn't done
since it was founded.....
2) She spent a lot of time relating the cattle mutilations to Alien sightings.
 You might want to add this..since it was a big point.  She told a lot of
stories and showed lots of pictures concerining the aliens farmers saw in
their fields prier to the mutilations.
3)  Velcro....FiberOptics...AND supercondutors :)
4)  I thought her points on human breedings with aliens were interesting.
As were her trans-dimensional speeches.

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14820 alt.paranormal:6736
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From: [e-mail] ( )
Subject: Re: Report: Linda Moulton howe at Penn State
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 03:01:52 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> Senthil Ramas Kumar <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>Linda Howe told us that the presence of so called "buck-shot" like things

>
>We were also shown a video clip of Bob Lazar, where we can see him talking
>about what he thinks he saw in S-4 at Area-51.

Where is this Lazar guy now?

>
>
>
>Some _possible_ alien technology that could have come from aliens,
>according to her are: Velcro, and fiber optics.
>
ha
ha
hahahahahaha






Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!zeus.tamu.edu!shekhar
From: [e-mail] (SHARAT SHEKHAR)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: NEED INFO ON HANGAR-18 INCIDENT
Date: 23 Mar 1993 22:15 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 11
Sender: [e-mail] (SHARATCHANDRA, M C)
Distribution: world
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Keywords: HANGAR-18
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

    I would deeply appreciate any detailed information on the famous
Hangar-18 incident where alien spacecraft and occupants were reportedly stored.
    A posting on the net would be helpful to others who're interested, as
well.
    Thanks in advance
        - Sharat
==============================================================================
    Not only is there no God, try getting a plumber on Sundays
                - Woody Allen
==============================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!titan!tardis!jbm
From: [e-mail] (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Re: Why are aliens nude?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 06:02:29 GMT
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[e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:


>Maybe they are?  I always heard that the Grays were actually gray because
>that was like the color of their elastic, skin-like protective gear ...
>I heard that they were actually brown underneath.  Anyone else have some
>more hard info than I do?

The infamous MIBs (Men In Black) must have a most unhuman-like
anatomy.... if they are naked.

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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: UFO Conventions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: EDIT THE NEWSGROUPS LINE!  NOW!
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 07:08:09 GMT
Lines: 13

[alt.alien.visitors]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz) writes:
>
>  OK..ok..bitch and moan away...the moaning might be best...};-) And you're
> *LEAVING*?? Aww...it wasn't what I said was it? Just kidding..actually with
> my killfile fixes for winston and kibo this newsgroup is ok.

That's funny, I've just added the string 'alt.alien.visitors' to my
alt.religion.kibology killfile.  Perhaps the good people of
alt.alien.visitors should consider not cross-posting everything to
alt.religion.kibology if the mixing of the two groups is as annoying to
a.a.v readers as it is to some in a.r.k.
                            -- K.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: Peter.White <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KRLL FILES : GROUP RESPONSE REQUESTED...
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 19:53:13 GMT
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Sender: [e-mail] (Peter White)
Lines: 29

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>>Since the SDI thing never left the ground... it COULD have been a goal but the
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I suppose you know what's up there and what's not? I don't think anybody knows
>for sure what the capabilities are in space now...
>The aerospace people went ahead and did developement on SDI, and have been
>yet, but the technology has been developed and could be deployed quickly.

>>liberals wouldn't let the Republicans have the money for SDI... so we'll never
>>know... will we?!?!
>>
>>It very well COULD have happened... if SDI had been in place... but since it
>>wasn't... oh well...
>>

>Jeff-


  I am yet another sceptic when it comes time to believe what our government
chooses to disclose to us, and tend to think that the worst case scenario is
in fact exactly what has already happenned...

--
Peter G. White, President, Synthesis 93 Inc.
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A.
[e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Brian Wood)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 17:51:12 GMT
Subject: Re: ParaNet/Internet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Mfg. Test Div., Loveland, CO
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References: <[e-mail]>
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Mike Corbin writes:

>    ParaNet International UFO Conference             alt.paranet.ufo
Found this one.

>    ParaNet Abductions Research Conference           alt.paranet.abduct
Not this one.

Brian Wood

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From: [e-mail] (Norman Morin)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Answer
Date: 24 Mar 1993 08:49:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
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NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Miss J A Cunningham) writes:
><[e-mail]>
>Xref: warwick talk.religion.newage:11542 alt.alien.visitors:13845 alt.religion.kibology:6725
>
>RE: Planet between Jupiter and Mars
>Just to affirm that I also understand it as a planet that
>failed to form due to the high gravity of Jupiter
>
>Lorinda - "They'll get me in the end."
>.

I don't have the estimate with me, but back in an Astrophysics
course from my undergrad days at Michigan the professor said
that from the estimated mass of the asteroid belt (and
accounting for some being leached away) the size of
the planet from which the asteroid belt would have'
been quite small.

--Norm
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Animal Mutilations
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 09:35:17 GMT
Lines: 29


In "An Alien Harvest" Linda Howe reports the case of someone who witnessed
such a "mutilation", and was even given a reason for it. The reason was:
important tests, which have to be done very quickly. The cow was "lifted"
from the ground without any visible means except what looked like a dull
yellow searchlight coming down from the sky. The light was unusual in that it
looked "like it had fiber or it had substance". Inside the craft (she appears
to have been there by means of an out-of-body experience) there was a very
well-equipped and immaculate kind of medical laboratory, where tissue from
the cow (actually it was a calf) was being tested with "probes".

Interesting in this report is that the lady notices that the greys in the
craft are wearing a body suit, which is apparently difficult to see. It goes
from their feet right up as far as their forehead. It's very thin. They seem
to be wearing a kind of slip-on shoe.

The poison (something to do with atomic testing and plutonium) is getting
everywhere and there will be great loss of life. The testing in outer space
(!) ought to stop. It's important to see how far into the reproductive system
it's got. Also the "excretions" are very important. (The anus of most cows is
"cored out"). They seem to replace the blood with another fluid.

Anyway, this information would seem to answer some of the question.

                                                Cheers,   Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
(Switzerland)
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From: [e-mail] (Titanium Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: FILE: Aliens at U.S. Bases
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 02:47:14 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Lines: 139

 From: DON ALLEN                             Date: 12-16-92 23:47
   To: ALL                                   Msg#: 2501
Subj.: RTK: Alien bases
 Area: UFO (Intl. F

 * Forwarded from "MUFON_WIRE"
 * Originally by John Komar
 * Originally to All
 * Originally dated 16 Dec 1992, 20:47

          MUFONET-BBS GROUP  -  MUFONET-BBS NETWORK
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Operation Right To Know FORUM Newsletter, Vol. 1, No. 4
                   September/October 1992
      Posted at the request of Operation Right To Know

ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD?
3       WITNESSES CLAIM THEY SAW ALIENS AT U.S. BASES        3
3                                                            3
3By Elaine Douglass                                          3
3                                                            3
3The U.S. government has a close working relationship with   3
3alien beings, three unnamed witnesses told a California     3
3radio station in a program aired in June.                   3
3                                                            3
3  The four-hour program, produced and broadcast by KPFA-FM  3
3in Berkeley, Calif., ranged widely over the UFO topic, but  3
3the most explosive segments were the testimony of a         3
3construction contractor who said he saw aliens at Edwards   3
3Air Force Base and at the China Lake Naval Weapons facility 3
3in California; the testimony of a man who described         3
3"saucers" being launched from a Northrop facility near      3
3Edwards; and a woman's second-hand account of a meeting     3
3between aliens and U.S. military officers.                  3
3                                                            3
3  Moreover, it now appears that KPFA's voice in the         3
3UFO area has been silenced. Although in June the program    3
3producer Ralph Steiner promised additional coverage of the  3
3UFO issue in future broadcasts, inquires from the Forum were3
3met with this blunt message from Mr. Steiner: "Do not re-   3
3broadcast the tape.  Persons whose testimony is on the tape 3
3have been threatened and their lives are in danger."        3
3Subsequent inquiries from The Forum to Mr. Steiner have gone3
3unanswered.                                                 3
3                                                            3
3  The Forum has obtained a tape of the KPFA broadcast. What 3
3follows is a summary and excerpts from witness No. 1. The   3
3testimony of witness No. 2 and No. 3 will be discussed in   3
3Part Two of this article next issue.                        3
3                                                            3
3  According to the KPFA broadcast, the interviews were      3
3conducted in April 1991 in communities surrounding Edwards  3
3Air Force Base in the Antelope Valley of Southern           3
3California. Witness No. 1 described himself as a Vietnam    3
3veteran, former Green Beret, military medal-holder, and a   3
3licensed general contractor who has worked on construction  3
3projects at Chuna Lake and at Nellis, Scott, Edwards, and   3
3Andrews Air Force Bases. The projects, the witness said,    3
3were "mostly underground."                                  3
3                                                            3
3* Underground Structures, Alien Beings                      3
3                                                            3
3  Each of these facilities has extensive underground        3
3installations, and they are "definitely not normal          3
3military structures," the witness said. He described        3
34-foot thick concrete walls and electronically-con-trolled  3
3oval-shaped doorways.                                       3
3  "In one building I worked on at Edwards, called Haystack  3
3Buttes, it took us over 5 minutes to get from the top to the3
3bottom by elevator," the witness said. "We estimated it was 3
330 stories deep." It was here that the witness first saw an 3
3alien.  "We were walking down a hall," the witness said,    3
3"and these doors opened and there was a very particular     3
3person or things that caught my eye for an instant. This man3
3was over seven feet tall. I'd say between 8 and 9 to 10     3
3feet, wearing a lab jacket and talking to two [human]       3
3engineers.                                                  3
3                                                            3
3  "This man's arms were almost down to his knees!  It threw 3
3me into shock," the witness said. "And then the doors       3
3closed. Security saw us and told us to get out of there.    3
3Next day I walked off the job," the witness said.           3
3                                                            3
3  Asked if the being he saw was a human, the witness        3
3replied, "Definitely not. He had big slanted eyes. A big    3
3head. Fingers were extremely long.  Greenish skin." The     3
3witness said he saw the being for "just a couple of seconds.3
3Three-quarters of its face is what I saw and I said, this   3
3guy would make a hell of a basketball player!"              3
3                                                            3
3* One Witness Scared, the Other Dead                        3
3                                                            3
3The witness said his co-worker " 'bout died" when he too saw3
3the being. The witness compared the height of the being to  3
3the height of the humans standing next to it. He said he    3
3knew one of the humans, whose height he estimated at 6 feet 3
36 inches.                                                   3
3                                                            3
3 Witness No. 1 described a second encounter with aliens. He 3
3said he and co-workers saw "greys" at the China Lake naval  3
3facility.                                                   3
3                                                            3
3 "They [security] thought we had left--me and two other     3
3guys. But we decided to stay over and finish this job. We   3
3walked past a hangar and we could see through a window," the3
3witness said.                                               3
3                                                            3
3  "One of the guys I was with, Paul, he saw them first. He  3
3said, 'Come here! Hurry up! I want to show you something!'  3
3And we looked in the window and there's these four little   3
3grey guys about 3 feet tall.                                3
3                                                            3
3  "Right then, security saw us and they told us, 'We        3
3thought you guys left.' And they escorted us and said,      3
3'You're not allowed around this hangar. This hangar is off- 3
3limits to everybody. You'll get yourself shot.'             3
3                                                            3
3  "And it messed with Paul's mind so much that every chance 3
3he got he snuck over there. He finally got caught and was   3
3kicked off the base. About three months later they found him3
3mysteriously dead in Orange County. This kinda put a scare  3
3in me. I know why not to mess with something," the witness  3
3said.                                                       3
3                                                            3
3  "After that I said, Ain't nobody pulling the blanket over 3
3my head any more. l know what's going on now. l know what I 3
3saw at Edwards is real. Somebody's playing games with us,"  3
3the witness said.                                           3
3                                                            3
3  It should be noted that KPFA is one of five "Pacifica"    3
3stations, the first of which was founded in the late 1940s. 3
3The Pacifica stations, in New York, berkeley, Los Angeles,  3
3Fresno, and Washington, D.C., are alternative, non-         3
3commercial and listener-sponsored, with a long tradition of 3
3political activism and precedent-making First Amendment     3
3struggles                                                   3
3                                                            3
3=END=                                                       3
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: What Would A Space Person Think Of Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 08:10:22 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: DistNet Technical Support
Lines: 39

> >This still holds to the assumption that there are "stages" in "cultural
> >development". There are levels of tachnology, granted, but culture seems
> >to be conditioned almost totally by biology. It is quite possible that
> >this will be so for any other race. Their biology however, may be very
> >different.

> >As a thought: how much difference would it make to human culture if we
> >could neither die, nor feel pain?
> >
> I would say that culture would never have arisen.  Pain, suffering
> and death are three reasons that civilisation came together---trying
> to avoid them by working together.  If nobody dies or gets hurt, there's
> no reason to have a society at all.

This is a quibble about the word "culture."  In the first quote the
author says "culture seems to be conditioned almost totally by
biology."  In the second quote I find the suggestion that "culture
would never have arisen" given a biological difference.

Both statements shocked me.  While I suppose it is true that without
biology (i.e. if we didn't have bodies) our culture would be
different.  Generally though "culture" refers to "the concepts,
habits, skills, arts, instruments, institutions of a given people in a
given period" (Websters)  That is, one cannot be without culture
unless one is without concepts and habits.  And while the biology of
homo-sapiens is pretty much constant arond the world and throughout
history, cultures vary a lot.

The idea that "pain, death and suffering" are re reasons why
civilisations came together is also novel and I wonder whether this is
sheer speculation or derives from reading some scholarly work?

Of course pain, death and suffering are associated with having biology
- no matter what sort of biology.  Were we to live without bodies,
it's likely our cities would be different :-).  Not only that, but we
would not be "life as we know it."

=Doug

---

uuisis!testsys!doug
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: What Would A Space Person Think Of Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 08:27:15 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: DistNet Technical Support
Lines: 187

In article <[e-mail]>
([e-mail]) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> >
> >I think a lot of this discussion is missing a very important point:
> >The assumption seems to be that a civilisation that comes to visit Earth
> >is going to be more advanced than Earth.  This is simply unfounded--we
> >have no evidence to point either way.

Actually we do have evidence.  On Earth itself we have quite a number
of different cultures.  500 years ago most of those cultures had zero
contact with each other.  In the past 500 years we've had a lot of
inter-cultural contact.  All the humans involved have about the same
average intelligence; all have "cultures", and all have/had
technology.  Those with more advanced transportation technologies, say
the Europeans with their sailing ships in 1500, thought of themselves
as more culturally advanced than the North Americans and Africans and
Australians they encountered.  They proved this by proceding to
exterminate and enslave the latter peoples whose lack of sophisticated
military organization (more than lack of adequate weapons) prevented
them, even with their numerical superiority, from driving out the
invaders.

The word "advanced" presumes a linear development - that one can look
at cultures on a straight line and place each one at a different place
relative to the other.  While you can think like that if you want, I'm
not sure you learn anything very useful.

Certainly some cultures are more accomplished at certain things than
others, and a lot of this has to do with historic circumstances.
Cultures, like the European, that lived with interminable warfare for
thousands of years, developed the art of war much further than the
North Americans who generally experienced less warfare and had more
developed diplomacy which enabled them to avoid war or put a stop to
it quickly.  The more warlike people were able to overwhelm the more
diplomatic people fairly easily and with remarkably little fighting.

It is ironic in the extreme.

Assuming the universe is full of intelligent races, we're likely to
find a range of cultural variations even greater than we have
experienced on Earth.  If there are "people" with interstellar
transportation then they are clearly more advanced "technically"
because we really haven't mastered that kind of technology.  I would
presume they'd also be quite warlike for two reasons: When
encountering other cultures, especially very warlike ones, if one
can't deal with war successfully (win, in other words) one's fate
could be that of the North American Indians - nearly exterminated and
marginalized.  Some other cultures are likely to be warlike.  Second,
the single largest spur to technological development is war or fear of
war.  For instance, the Earth space programs developed out of the
"Cold War," that 45 year long arms race; the microchip used by this
computer was first developed for the arms industry.

So I expect interstellar travellers would be accomplished in the arts
of war.  It's hard to believe that "intelligent" creatures could be as
warlike as we are, admittedly.

I have heard it said that the Earth is under galactic quarantine and
no one is allowed to have social intercourse with us for fear that we
will learn the technology of space travel and become a dangerous
marauder.  When I look at how the powerful countries treat the weaker
countries in the world, I certainly think we're not ready to deal with
extra-planetary cultures.  Cripes, we can't even deal reasonably with
our fellow-humans on earth!

> Appearantly the greys are a case in point. Although they have astounding
> technologies that make some of ours look like toys in comparison, they
> pull some really stupid stunts. Fortunately for them, their technology
> can pull them through even when they flunk Human Society 101. I am not
> saying we are much better. Well, look who we elected president? Anyway,
> after doing some studying, I am no longer in awe of the greys. Envious
> of their technology but not in awe as a whole. Its difficult to tell
> but I have my doubts as to the actual intelligence of them, their
> technology not withstanding. I think, taken out of their element
> (remove their technology) and they would scarcly be able to compete with
> the average human toddler in any given situation. I think they have
> become slaves to their own technology or at the very least, their
> technology has become a crutch they cannot do without.

There are those who would say that we in the West have become slaves
of our technology.  How many of us could survive for an average of 30
years in the African bush, equipped only with a stone knife and a
spear?  Clearly our ancestors did that and the Bushmen still do.

There is an important distinction to be made between "natural
sciences", those techniques and technologies which deal with the
non-human natural word and "human sciences", those techniques and
technologies which deal with the human and social aspects.  Of course
there is a lot of overlap.

The point I want to get at is that some of our science and material
culture is designed to manipulate nature to secure our lives - such
things as growing food and making houses and clothes - while other
elements focus on manipulation and control of other people.  The
latter range from the fairly benign "rule of law", the courts and the
police and even some of the armed forces, to the less benign
structures of power and prestige which preserve fabulous excess wealth
in the hands of some and desparate poverty and starvation for others.
These latter structures are maintained only by enormous military
establishments which possess the capacity to kill nearly everyone in
an hour or so.

The word "Civilization" really means "Citification."  Cities arose on
the heels of the Agricultural Revolution.  It became technically
possible to support a larger population in a smaller area with
Agriculture.  One of the main challenges of a city is figuring how
everyone is going to get along with each other with a tolerably low
level of conflict, violence and insecurity.  So the "natural science"
of agriculture which spawns larger population requires the "social
sciences" which tackle the problems associated with crowding and the
breakdown of traditional tribal and kinship systems which ensured that
people got along with each other tolerably well in hunting-gathering
societies.  The earliest expression of "social science" in terms of
politics and civic administration appears to be a mix of religious
institutions and autocratic rule by strongmen and their henchmen.
Later, rivalry between remote cities whose growing empires came into
contact placed even more emphasis on the military aspect of coercive
control.  It appears that it was a situation of kill or be killed, and
it appears that it hasn't changed all that much in 6000 years or so of
"civilization."

The richest and most "successful" societies today are mostly those
which have long traditions of military excellence; America, Germany,
Japan, England, France, Canada, Italy - these are the seven largest
industrial powers today - large in terms of total money power, not
necessarily population.  Russia, which also has a strong military
tradition and the second largest military establishment in the world,
is a notable exception.  It took the art of social control and
manipulation to new heights and suffered enormously because of it.
Creativity and productivity of its citizens was hindered by the
excessive concentration on central authority.

In the richest countries which are all "capitalist democracies" the
instruments of social control have been constrained by law.  Thus we
speak of the "free world," those countries in which certain human
freedoms from coercion are valued and protected.  The freedom for a
person or corporation to own capital and invest it in profitable
enterprise is probably the most important one.  Other societies, like
Russia, restricted or prohibited private ownership, placing emphasis
on the centrally controlled public enterprise instead of the private
enterprise which, while it may be regulated by the state, isn't
controlled by the state.

There are a number of very interesting questions raised when we
proceed to evaluate how "advanced" a given culture is according to the
measure of social control and coercion.  We see in Earth history quite
a number of different structures that people have worked out and used
to organize their societies.  The most successful appear to be those
which have accepted and enforced severe limits on the use of
techniques of social control; guaranteeing "freedom" from certain
kinds of coercion and control to the citizens.  Really, it is an
acceptance of limits and a measure of respect for the humanity and
free will of others - that there are things which, even though you
*can* do them (like was done in Russia), you *shouldn't* do them.  So
we set up courts and constitutions and laws which restrict the
powerful - especially the power of the state.  The state is the single
most refined and potent technology of social control.

I think we need to learn how to place limits on other technologies
too.  Nothing, no matter how good it is, is good in excess and
extreme.  Food is good, too much food is bad.  Warmth is good, too
much warmth kills you.  Society is good, too much society (i.e.
Russia) creates a big mess for everyone.  Etc.

"Sophistication" means, I think, understanding things well enough to
know when to say "no more" - to understand the healthy limits.  In the
modern world we have to look beyond the state to global institutions
capable of regulating excesses of any state and capable of reaching
fair and reasonable decisions.

We like to think "democracy" is the fair way to make decisions which
concern everyone.  A great challenge for Earth in the 21st Century is
for the G-7 (USA, Germany, Japan, U.K., France, Italy, Canada) to
realize that most of the world's people - 85% or so I think - don't
live in G-7 countries.  A planetary democracy would be dominated by
China and India, simply because that's where most people happen to
live.

Earthmen: your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to figure
out a fair and reasonable way of dealing with the incredible
inequalities and injustices present on your own planet!  Figure out
how to get along, as a species, on your home planet.

=Doug

---

uuisis!testsys!doug
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: What Would A Space Person Think Of Earth.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 09:51:32 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: na
Organization: DistNet Technical Support
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> (Rob Brady) writes:

> The technology to 'flit' back and forth between nearby stars is essentially
> already in hand but witness space station freedom (scaled by by _Mr_Science
> Gore and his running mate) to see why we are not doing it. Money. Well, by
> flit I mean %10 the speed of light. 45 years to the closest star, 90 (if
> I recall rightly) to the next (G) star. If we had more propellant mass or
> a better conversion technology (I am thinking of straight fission with a
> liquid propellant - helium?).

There is a very interesting point here.  Inter-stellar travel is
within our technological ability.  It would take a lot of time and
effort - and money - but we know how to do it, even if we don't know
how to do it well.

But for one nation, the USA, with what, 7% of the world's people? to
try it would place an excessive burden on that nation.  No one country can
afford it.  Meanwhile most people on earth haven't yet figured out to
ensure a reliable and secure supply of food - and we have the
technology for that too.  Perhaps if we can apply ourselves first to
feeding everyone and then apply ourselves to getting everyone's
productivity to about that level seen in the USA, then Earth could
well afford to reach for the stars.

It's hard to worry about reaching the stars or divert resources to
that end when you're fully occupied worrying about where your next
meal is going to come from.  And the latter is the condition of most
people on earth.

There is a heirarchy of priorities for the planet, and reaching the
stars falls somewhere below the hot supper in my books.  If we can't
do the latter, it's silly to seriously contemplate the former.

=Doug

---

uuisis!testsys!doug
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From: [e-mail] (Shazad Barlas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: I WAS KIDNAPPED BY ALIENS!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Mar 93 14:44:00 GMT
Distribution: alt.alien
Organization: University of Westminster
Lines: 21

Now I know you guys aren't gonna beleive this but I think I was kidnapped by
aliens from outer space! It happened a few years ago when I went to sleep. I
thought I was dreaming - but I just have this feeling that I wasn't.... There
I was - sleep walking into my next door neighbour's garden when this cat jumped me - I fell to the grass and (you wont beleive this but...) the cat turned into
a big humungous monster and suddenly took me into their spaceship... I think it
was like start trek's BEAM ME UP SCOTTY but I cant tell.... Well the spaceship
was just the hugest thing you have ever seen - it was even bigger than the moon
(but still smaller than earth) and had lights blazing from all over the place.
And there was this humming noise - a bit like electric generators or something.
And the funny thing is they offered me cans  of Vimto and there was this really
beutiful girl I met there - she told me she was kidnapped too adn that we were
the only two humans on the 'mothership'. Well soon enuf we started kissing...
but as soon as I touched her lips - SHE TURNED INTO A HALF-KANGAROO HALF-
RHINO - as she tried to explain to me that she was being experimented on....

Only after a couple of hours... I managed to sneak into an escape capsule and
jettisoned my way back to earth. Well after recovering from the shockk, the
first thing I done was contact the Space Admin guys but they just wouldn;t beleive
me. So here I am telling you of my encounter with these aliens.... I hope
someone out there has had a similar experience because I really am no messing
about here.....
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From: [e-mail] (Randolph S. Vance)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: nx24.mik.uky.edu
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 09:40:57 GMT
Lines: 77


Okay, I will try to talk plainly and rationally, as you have doubtless been
under some major amount of mental stress and trauma.

1. By posting a message to the NetNews, you have opened yourself up further
to whom you consider "enemies". The FBI archives EVERY post made for the need
of national security. Would you want an eager foriegn exchange student posting
all sorts of classified technical stuff?

2. The FBI keeps track of people not out of the need of National security,
but out of the need to watch. It's complicated to explain, but though you
are not guilty of anything, save existing, potential candidates or high
ranking people in general or "special operatives" must be watched to verify
mental stability. Many people go their whole lives without realizing who's
watching them or why, and this is very good. An ignorant man is a silent man,
and thus a safe asset to security. When you identify those sent for monitoring,
you force the other side to keep closer tabs on you. You become a severe
risk, a jeopardy to the secretive nature built thousands of years ago in
the Illuminati and Cabals of Ancient times.

3. Why you are being watched is irrelevant. Who is watching you is not.

The people of Earth are but a creation to be watched, scrutinized and studied.
Visualize a giant ant farm. Everyone's seen an Ant farm and knows how
utterly fascinating it is to watch the behavior and life patterns of the
Ant. There is a certain aspect when one has an ant farm to "play God" and
this can be classified by how much food you choose to feed the ants, how
much water you want to give them to drink, or, to torture the ants mercilessly
by destroying the ant's creation. There is one catch, the Ants have (or at
least we perceive they have) no comprehension of their surroundings, so they
do not question or rebel. If you noticed an ant that did not eat, nor drink,
nor sleep but spent it's meager time fighting it's kind and questioning
authority, you'd squash it before it became too violent.

In short, go with the status quo. Don't make yourself visible by questioning
authority.

Who ARE the watchers, then? That is a good question. It is possible that
the watchers are merely curious beings to study animals in the field.
Conquest by them or any other alien race could be ruled out for these
possibilities. Our planet cannot sustain their kind of life. Our planet
may be too backwater for them. Our planet might have become more polluted
than their own, making it of no value. Plus, how could you expect an alien
force of one million to be sent to control and enslave over 6 billion people?
Our planet might also be too hostile. We have weapons capable of completely
destroying our world several times over. If the Earth were faced with the
unlikely possibility of Alien enslavement, we might perhaps launch a nuclear
attack of massive proportion to mercifully kill our inhabitants, rather than
let them face the cruel alien whip of slavery, plus rendering our planet
deadly to all native life, leaving it a dead rock in the sea of space.

The watchers, knowing all these linear possibilities already, have considered
this into their activities. It is up to us to know and understand this, lest
troublemakers like you force them into ultimatly revealing their position
and terrifying the billions on our planet into mass hysteria and rash actions.
Remember in 1938 when Orson Wells terrified millions across the country with
his fake radio broadcast? The watchers are waiting for the time when our
paranoia and xenophobia will be replaced with understanding.

4. Your brain is the most valuable possesion you have. Do not let mundane
people tamper with it with drugs or surgery. Keep quiet, keep passive,
smile, say hi to people, but keep your soul and thoughts to yourself.
Otherwise, you force people into the position of silencing you by death or
mental incapacitation, or have the top ranking people denounce you as
a lunatic. And, to everyone else, you come of as just that.

Make no further postings, to keep your name out of trouble. Drop out of
all sight and human contact. Take a vacation from your worries.

When you have completed this, we shall contact you again. Until then,
Klatu verada nicto, todo nakatei.

--
Randolph S. Vance
[e-mail] (NeXT Mail)

QUOTE: "I'll watch some TV, it'll help me to RELAX!" -Ren Hoek
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Chung)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: [aliens] "Jehovah" TRIBE OF RENEGADE SPACE CANNIBALS (not)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Mar 93 15:55:30 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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Organization: Electronics For Imaging, Inc.
Lines: 28


     I believe that my previous did not get through.  The same idea again:

     I read a book originally by a French, whose name I forgot, and the
name of the book in Chinese translation is:
 \ / --- \/  /-+ / / \    // \ / --- \
  X  /        /| \/      <<   X  /
 / \ \--     / / --|      \\ / \ \--

 \ / --- \   ---  |   /       /   |  --+ /
  X  ++-      |   |  /       <    |   X
 / \  //      |   |  ---      \   |  / \

Roughly, "I Have Been to Another Planet".  The writer writes that it (he/she)
was taken up to another planet, and met a group of immortal extraterrestrials.
The head of the group (president of a conference) is called by a name whose
Chinese translation becomes:
  |  \ / \/  \ / \
  |   |       X   \
  |   |      / \   \
Probably Yahweh.  ("Yahweh" is "Jehovah" in a more correct spelling
-- ask Christian scholars about "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" if you have not
taken Biblical Knowledge classes in secondary school.)  It also say
Jesus, Shakkyamuni (spelling?), et al.  But they are *not* cannibals.

     I wonder where Robert McElwaine got this information.

                    Daniel Chung (Mr.)
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel Chung)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: [sex] Re: Why are all captured aliens male?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Mar 93 16:04:19 GMT
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     I believe that my previous article did not get through.  The idea again:

     Blondie (Heidi Vogel?) said:

>Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.

I agree that perhaps it is the old use of "he" for a sexless pronoun.

     Greg Larson said:

>...
>what's the first thing people ask when someone has a baby -- Is it a
>boy or girl? ...

Sex is not the only question about a baby.  It is only the first.  Then you
ask: "How heavy is it?" and so on.

>... Since abductees report far more alien fetuses developing
>in jars than they do bulging, pregnant aliens ...

If a female is pregnant, would she be working on a spaceship?  She should be
resting at home.

     I say:

     Since aliens can perform reproduction experiment between us and them,
it is supposible that they have the same two sexes and we do.  So, the
"male" versus "female" distinction can be talked about.  Also, it means
that we all come from the same evolution tree.  So, evolution implications?

                        Daniel Chung (Mr.)
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From: [e-mail] (Jason G. Hasenbuhler)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Files?
Summary: Ahhhgg..
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Date: 22 Mar 93 21:13:57 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
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        I keep seeing messages replying to mysterious KRLL files, or
referring to a message that, somehow, was completely invisible to
me. What's going on here? Do I have to keep bugging the people who
supposedly sent these messages, or is there some command I'm
missing? In any case I'd like to see a copy of that KRLL file, as
well as some others that were posted on here (specifically the
message that was talking about SDI and the Nordics) Anyone who can
save my sanity via a quick solve to this, please help..


                                                  Jay

D
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why are all captured aliens male?
Date: 24 Mar 1993 18:38:05 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.
>Ei: Ebe and Krll...

wrong premise.

>One can always smell a fake when it looks blatantly chauvanistic.........

Such irony.
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From: [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: What Would A Space Person Think Of Earth.
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>If there are "people" with interstellar
>transportation then they are clearly more advanced "technically"
>because we really haven't mastered that kind of technology.  I would
>presume they'd also be quite warlike for two reasons: When
>encountering other cultures, especially very warlike ones, if one
>can't deal with war successfully (win, in other words) one's fate
>could be that of the North American Indians - nearly exterminated and
>marginalized.

Imagine it's some time before the American revolution, and you are trying to
think about future cultures.  "Well, we know there will not be a representative
democracy in the USA; after all, European cultures are already more advanced
than the USA, and they don't have representative democracies".  (except for
small microstates)

Better yet, imagine you are a Stalinist before Stalin.  You note that there
have been a lot of successful dictatorships in the past, so the USSR must
survive forever, right?  Eventually, the whole system collapsed, and for
reasons that don't really make much sense in a less advanced (technically)
civilization.

>the single largest spur to technological development is war or fear of
>war.  For instance, the Earth space programs developed out of the
>"Cold War," that 45 year long arms race; the microchip used by this
>computer was first developed for the arms industry.

Imagine a cosmic Japan, that develops technology out of a desire to get
richer instead out of fear of war....

>The point I want to get at is that some of our science and material
>culture is designed to manipulate nature to secure our lives - such
>things as growing food and making houses and clothes - while other
>elements focus on manipulation and control of other people.

And my point is that science and material culture make the world enough of a
different place that social elements that used to work now stop working, and
vice versa.  Ultimately, advanced cultures are more peaceful because peace
works better for them.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Atlantis, What Was It Like?
Date: 24 Mar 1993 20:34:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, [e-mail] (dolan andrew) says:
>iPlato wrote about 600 BC, saying that atlantis vanished 9,000 years before his time, making it about 11,600 years ago. Look up yhe story in the Critias and Timaeus.

This won't do.  You have too many errors in this text.  I'll help.

I, Plato, wrote during the approximate year 600 BC.  In the text, I postulated
that Atlantis vanished 9,000 years before its time.  I wrote this 11,600 years
ago.  Look ye up the story in the Critias and Timaeus.

Please be clearer in the future.

Mark

R%xG-hH(tL'rB#aM~cD|hN@eN$lT#wI"aO$nD*tA:tQ=oX{wM+aP<rG|lY`oV-rC;dR*tZ#hN&iO_sH}
o Mark  Bradley - fourth year English graduate student                         f
, [e-mail]                                  ^               V
U       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- I _ALWAYS_ capitalize        / \  ____        "
j                                the address of the          / | \ |  |        l
:                                World's First Free          | | | |  |        F
J "I before E, except when       Computing System            | | | |  |        ^
p  you aren't spelling."                                     | | | |  |        q
@                       -- Me                                |-|-| |--|        W
T                                                             Join the         +
k  .sig still under construction (see?)                  CLEVELAND FREE-NET!   i
#Bd_Jw%Uo!Pn(Ff.Iq=Kw[Gh$Sl'En$Hu:Au_Fy]Wy>Do#Cv,Id(Ob$Dv\Gs{Ql/Bk?Rm(Ys~Hd{Sj*F


R%xG-hH(tL'rB#aM~cD|hN@eN$lT#wI"aO$nD*tA:tQ=oX{wM+aP<rG|lY`oV-rC;dR*tZ#hN&iO_sH}
o Mark  Bradley - fourth year English graduate student                         f
, [e-mail]                                  ^               V
U       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- I _ALWAYS_ capitalize        / \  ____        "
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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Mark Moralez)
Subject: SA Area Contacts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 20:26:35 GMT
Lines: 5

    Anyone out there know of any contact/abduct experiences in the
SA area.  Whitley Streiber, of course, mentions his memories of
contact and sighting in Olmos park.  I have met several others who have
had experiences and sightings, including abductees.

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lklkj
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From: [e-mail] (case s)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 24 Mar 1993 22:39:58 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>=Really, your negativity astounds me.
>I wish I could say that your gullibility astound me, but since it's such a
>staple of new-agers, it doesn't.

Well, I think the main thing here is I didn't realize that this is being
cross-posted to sci.skeptic.  The same net rules should apply, however.
You say I'm gullible; I say I'm a psychic-in-training.  Obviously, different
points of view.

>=I will not react to your comments; they
>=they were rather abrasive and rude.
>And I find your nearly incredibile gullibility offensive.  If I tone down my
>abrasiveness, will you tone down your gullibility?

Incredible gullibility?  Who put you on a throne and made you the expert
supreme on what makes a person gullible or not?

>=I do take issue with you for
>=calling my material 'bullshit', 'claptrap', and telling me to catch
>=a clue.
>Well, you made a rather astoundingly stupid claim.  Suppose you tell us what
>new-age beliefs are younger than science?  Please be specific.

That is not what I said; if I did say that, that would be stupid, yes.
The beliefs most new-agers have have been around for millenia.  But I
didn't say beliefs and I didn't limit my comments to the scope of
new agers, now did I?

>=Tone that post down a bit, and I will gladly
>=respond to any critiques/concerns you may have with what I have to say.
>Start providing evidence for your claims and I'll tone down my posts.

Any evidence I could provide here would be ignored by someone with the
attitude that you display.

                    - Richard Temps

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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
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Matthew Zenkar writes:

>What about the Billy Meir metal samples that were given to Bell labs in
>Europe?  They supposedly had superconducting properties.  They disappeared
>and now look where some of the recent advances in superconducting technology
>came out of.  BELL LABS.

As a former Bell Labs employee, to the best of my knowledge, there is
no AT&T Bell Labs location in Europe nor was there ever one.  Can any
current employees prove me wrong?

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From: [e-mail] (case s)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 24 Mar 1993 23:16:28 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
>=>=According to Jacques Vallee, you can even get a
>=>=government license to be a douser in Russia.
>=>
>=>To whomever wondered at the claim that Russia was now being inundated with lots
>=>of phony psychics:  Please take note.
>=
>=Well, the United States has been inundated with phony psychics a lot longer
>=than they have.  Note however that the implication is there that if there
>=are phony psychics, there are real ones as well.
>
>It could well be (and all the evidence seems to indicate that this is the case)
>that ALL psychics are phony.  At least, I've never heard of any evidence that
>any particular psychic is real.

The evidence _you_ have received.  I have garnered much different evidence.
And, in my exepriences with others, even providing such evidence.  As for the
newsgroup 'sci.skeptic', it appears like a hangout for a lot of skeptics
to support each others skepticism.  :>  I hangout at places like '#Wicca'
on the Internet Relay Chat, where people gather and share experiences that
support their pro-psychic beliefs.

>=First of all, I dont believe in coincidence or luck.
>Gee.  That means that if someone tosses a fair coin ten times and it comes up
>heads every time, that MUST be due to psychic powers, right?  Well, I've got

That was not my implication.  I believe that many, many things can happen
may appear to be coincidental and such, but my beliefs prevent me from
believing any one event is 'inherently' coincidental.

>=As for the claim that all
>=psychic powers are based on coincidence, you might want to research more on
>=the subject of 'psychic powers' before you make that claim.  It would be
>=interesting to see how you could explain things like telekinesis away to
>=coincidence.
>I didn't say that ALL so-called "psychic powers" are based on coincidence.  At
>least some such claims are based on fraud.  Suppose you tell us of some
>specific, well-documented cases supporting your claims?  (Remember?  I asked
>you for just this sort of thing in a previous post, and you still haven't
>answered.  At this point, I'm inclined to believe that you simply don't know of
>any such cases, and are relying on rumor to support your delusions).

Well, the fraud theory is an easy explanation.  No matter how 'good' a person
is at his 'trick', it's still a 'trick', and thus a mixture of sleight of
hand and hidden strings.  Coincidence breaks down quickly, however, when the
probabilities get out beyond the one-in-a-million range.  You make a call for
Documented Evidence.  It exists; do some research and you should find
plenty.  I don't rely on rumor for my 'delusions' (as you so rudely put it),
tho.  I rely on my own inherent psychic abilities to convince me of MY
delusions.  Everything you read can be written by a group of pro-psychic
deluded insane conspiracists, and this response could _actually_ be written
by a well-written nethack modification.  I could give you plenty of the
experiences _I_ have had recently, but I have a feeling you will only
interpret them as more delusions of a raving paranoid fanatic.

If you should approach me in a more _polite_, objective frame of mind, then
I will tell you of my first hand experiences with the paranormal, but not
until then.

                    Smile, you'll live longer.
                    - Richard Temps
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From: [e-mail] (Patrick Milloy)
Subject: "The Guardian"- Unsolved Mysteries- Ottawa
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Who is The Guardian?  What is his/her relationship with the U.F.O.
landing in Ottawa?  A videotape aired on Unsolved Mysteries Feb.92
showed compelling evidence of an alien craft/secret military craft
hovering a few miles outside Ottawa.  The Guardian videotaped this
event and put his fingerprint in ink on the cassette cover.  He sent
the tape along with some Department of National Defence files to
various groups/organizations.  The tape was analized by expert
scientists in various fields of study.  It proves not to have been
tampered with or a hoax.  A detailed map of the alleged sighting
was included.  Researchers travelled to the house of the couple who
live on the land detailed by the map.  The woman admitted to seeing
the craft.  She was too frightened and afraid of ridicule to report
it at the time.  I believe it happened 2 years ago.  She correctly
described the craft and the fire below it before viewing the tape
or being told the date of the sighting.  She was simply asked if
she had seen anything unusual lately.  Since then black or unmarked
helicopters routinely fly over her home.  One other point, there
was a bright blue or white light above the craft strobing at 7
cycles per second or a number unlike conventional aircraft.

Please answer, I am very interested in this case.
E-Mail  [e-mail]
E-Mail  [e-mail]
the proper E-Maail is the second one
Or answer in this newsgroup
thank you
--




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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Message?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Mar 93 21:44:46 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>    Paul...
>
>        You ask if the real message is that our government
>    is screwing us and what can we do about it... I say shoot
>    all the politicians and set up an anarchical system.
>    Finally, freedom for all!
>

Well, except for the politicians you just shot.  Nice one.  The right to
continue living is probably one of the most fundamental freedoms there
is.  I don't see how you can advocate 'freedom for all', and anarchy,
and suggest that the proper way of going about it is shooting those that
don't agree with the system.  That's dictatorship, not anarchy.

If this was a joke, I volunteer to let you shoot me for missing it. :-)
*BLAM*
thud.

--
***************************************************************************
"I was pleased to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn't
 know."----- Mark Twain, _Life on the Mississippi_
Jason "[e-mail]" Corley Was Here But Isn't Anymore
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From: [e-mail] (David Svoboda)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Richard, I emailed you privately, and very politely, I thought.  I asked some serious
questions of you, and you have not deigned to answer.  So I will have to take this
public.  I hope that is what you intended.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (A Richard Temps) writes:
|
|A good douser could do that.  There a quite a few people skilled at
|dousing around.  According to Jacques Vallee, you can even get a
|government license to be a douser in Russia.  They have a very different
|approach to the phenomena there.

I have personal experience with a dowser.  I set up a simple experiment,
when I was in high-school.  It was as tight as I could make it, and I
fully expected the dowser to succeed.  She did not.  She made a lame
excuse.  I offered to change the experiment to suit her requirements.
She got angry at that, and I discontinued the pursuit.  It is my
opinion, based on that, that she was a fraud.

Just one data point.  If you know any confident dowsers in the Chicago
area, I would be more than happy to repeat the experiment.

|>results, or high temperatures in a few cities on random future dates.
|
|I really doubt many psychics care enough about that subject to really
|delve into it.  Psy powers manifest the best when there is need for them;
|real need triggers them more than anything else, according to my researches.

Okay, then.  Are you aware of the astounding prediction failure rates of
ALL of the publicly practicing prognosticators?  Are we to believe that
there are those that can predict the future accurately, but that every
single one of them in public view is a fraud?

|>only exists when no one is looking at it or taking notes or thinking
|>about it, then screw it. It doesn't exist. It's the product of wishful
|>thinking.
|
|It doesn't exist to _you_.  It is very real and exists to me.

So you are saying that reality is subjective?  That may be the crux of
the misunderstanding, as scientific method is in large part simply a
technique to discern a non-subjective, common reality.

But if reality is completely subjective, and there is no common
experience, then you are obviously wasting your time trying to share
your individual reality with a world that knows it's balderdash.

|Tell me,
|why is it that hunters (hopefully in the most traditional sense of the
|word) always look off to the side of their prey before releasing the
|arrow/pulling the trigger?  Now, I don't know if most hunters believe in
|psychic powers or anything, but they do know that if they focus their
|attention on a deer (no matter how well hidden and covered and quiet
|they may be), that deer will suddenly get real still, look their
|direction and bolt.

That's *really* funny.  It is obvious you do not hunt.  If an animal can
see you, it is good not to look at them, simply because they can see you
looking, and their survival instincts tell them that that's bad.

If they can't see you, looking at them does nothing.

I hope he was speaking rhetorically, because if he was actually suggesting
you shoot a rifle without looking at the target, he is teaching some
very dangerous habits.

|This comes from my wilderness survival teacher at
|the ROTC program in my university.

You are unwise to take the word of someone without question.  In short,
he is completely mistaken.

|There are _many_ very pragmatic
|people who believe in psychic powers, who think its a product of wishful
|thinking just as much as I think the earth is flat.

Pragmatism is not taking another's word for things, without question.
There are a million examples of experts who have superstitions about their
fields, yet are demonstrably wrong.  (Example: ask a mechanic about
lead-acid batteries and concrete floors.  Then do some inexpensive tests.)

I have a simple challenge for you, Richard.  If you are psychic, or you
know someone who definitely is, I want you to tell me, um, let's see,
how about, tell me my mother's middle name (hint; she's alive, lives in
the midwest, and was born on June 4, 1927.  I'll write the name on my
hand, so I think about it often).  Knock yourself out.

        Dave Svoboda
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From: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ParaNet/Internet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Mar 93 01:41:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Organization: Emergency Third Rail Power Trip
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brian Wood) writes:
>Mike Corbin writes:
>
>>    ParaNet International UFO Conference             alt.paranet.ufo
>Found this one.
>
>>    ParaNet Abductions Research Conference           alt.paranet.abduct
>Not this one.
>
>Brian Wood
>

Tho people on the net usually advise against it, I think in this case
it would be nice to ask that people >do< crosspost from the Paranet
groups to alt.alien.visitors. It takes a bit of effort to convince
people to carry new groups on a system where news often runs out of
diskspace, inodes and the like.


                Have Fun,
                SENDS STEVE


[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Mar 93 02:51:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve XI The Entity_Attache')
Organization: Emergency Third Rail Power Trip
Lines: 171

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Randolph S. Vance) writes:
>
>Okay, I will try to talk plainly and rationally, as you have doubtless been
>under some major amount of mental stress and trauma.
>
>1. By posting a message to the NetNews, you have opened yourself up further
>to whom you consider "enemies". The FBI archives EVERY post made for the need
>of national security. Would you want an eager foriegn exchange student posting
>all sorts of classified technical stuff?
>

I really doubt that this happens. Now I will grant you that it is hard
to prove one way or the other, seeing as one can not just ask security
agencies "are you archiving posts to group such and such." But giving that
not all groups are not widely posted it becomes difficult to catch everyone.
Especially silly groups like alt.bestiality.hamster.duct.tape or such things.
It also would take a lot of space to store all this stuff, day after day,
week after week, month after month, year after year. If one has even been
the admin of even a >medium sized< site and has to handle backup policy,
you quickly get an idea about how difficult this would be. Even the FBI
does not have unlimited funds.

Now this is not to say that our friendly security apparat does not
monitor things or hire some people and have them as lurkers and have
them keep track of messages/people on "interesting groups" to quietly forward
messages from said groups. For examaple I could imagine them getting
forwarded posts from say alt.drugs when ever anyone talks about making
drugs or defeating the authorities in their quest to bother drug manufacters
and consumers.

Despite all it seems that "human intelligence" is the best/easiest to
do. I could see some authority paying someone say $1000 to $1500/mo to
just keep track of "interesting" things, and forwarding interesting
posts and so forth.

Somehow I suspect that UFO groups are less worried about than drug
groups. For one thing, UFO and conspiracy theory is certainly to
a certain extent self-quenching. In the sense that when someone posts
to these sorts of things, it is certainly viewed skepticly by many
people. And despite what hard-core-skeptics say I don't know what they
would take as unequivocal proof, probably a UFO landing on the white
house lawn. So any unusual claims get shouted down pretty quickly,
or expounded til they sound silly. Still I could imagine some interest
is generated when people make noises about going to visit near bases
where for example secret aircraft are tested.

>2. The FBI keeps track of people not out of the need of National security,
>but out of the need to watch. It's complicated to explain, but though you
>are not guilty of anything, save existing, potential candidates or high
>ranking people in general or "special operatives" must be watched to verify
>mental stability. Many people go their whole lives without realizing who's
>watching them or why, and this is very good. An ignorant man is a silent man,
>and thus a safe asset to security. When you identify those sent for monitoring,
>you force the other side to keep closer tabs on you. You become a severe
>risk, a jeopardy to the secretive nature built thousands of years ago in
>the Illuminati and Cabals of Ancient times.
>
Now this is beginning to get humourous. It makes me want to say things
out of Phillip K. Dick, such as: "The Empire Never Really Ended." But
of course there are all sorts of things in the biography "Only Apparently
Real" (which I initially took as a book about international finance!:)
that are close to home, sort of like economics, which can be real and
unreal at the same time.

>3. Why you are being watched is irrelevant. Who is watching you is not.
>
>The people of Earth are but a creation to be watched, scrutinized and studied.
>Visualize a giant ant farm. Everyone's seen an Ant farm and knows how
>utterly fascinating it is to watch the behavior and life patterns of the
>Ant. There is a certain aspect when one has an ant farm to "play God" and
>this can be classified by how much food you choose to feed the ants, how
>much water you want to give them to drink, or, to torture the ants mercilessly
>by destroying the ant's creation. There is one catch, the Ants have (or at
>least we perceive they have) no comprehension of their surroundings, so they
>do not question or rebel. If you noticed an ant that did not eat, nor drink,
>nor sleep but spent it's meager time fighting it's kind and questioning
>authority, you'd squash it before it became too violent.

I don't know, even if I grant you that an alien intelligence is watching,
then it is hard to easily project human values on it, over such a large
area without degrading to StarTrek Thinking where all sorts of things are
assumed to be universal without much proof that they are universal. This
is an open question, even when you have humans involved. I think if an
ant started questioning authority and started a group of anarchistic ants
then most intelligent humans would pay attention! They might watch more
intently and say: "This is not your usual run of the mill ant colony!"
This all sort of reminds me of a cartoon I saw once in which there was
a very shocked human, and on his shoulder was a mouse who said:
"Does it bother you that I am a mouse and can articulate?" If one believes
it really happened, the policeman in Pittsburgh many years ago who
saw the dog that came toward him, asked him for the time of day, and then
vanished in a puff of smoke, was not fired on by the policeman even
though he was armed and could do so.

>
>In short, go with the status quo. Don't make yourself visible by questioning
>authority.
>
>Who ARE the watchers, then? That is a good question. It is possible that
>the watchers are merely curious beings to study animals in the field.
>Conquest by them or any other alien race could be ruled out for these
>possibilities. Our planet cannot sustain their kind of life. Our planet
>may be too backwater for them. Our planet might have become more polluted
>than their own, making it of no value. Plus, how could you expect an alien
>force of one million to be sent to control and enslave over 6 billion people?
>Our planet might also be too hostile. We have weapons capable of completely
>destroying our world several times over. If the Earth were faced with the
>unlikely possibility of Alien enslavement, we might perhaps launch a nuclear
>attack of massive proportion to mercifully kill our inhabitants, rather than
>let them face the cruel alien whip of slavery, plus rendering our planet
>deadly to all native life, leaving it a dead rock in the sea of space.
>
This just gets from the realm of enlightened speculation to pure
speculation. It is still a lot of fun.

>The watchers, knowing all these linear possibilities already, have considered
>this into their activities. It is up to us to know and understand this, lest
>troublemakers like you force them into ultimatly revealing their position
>and terrifying the billions on our planet into mass hysteria and rash actions.
>Remember in 1938 when Orson Wells terrified millions across the country with
>his fake radio broadcast? The watchers are waiting for the time when our
>paranoia and xenophobia will be replaced with understanding.
>
>4. Your brain is the most valuable possesion you have. Do not let mundane
>people tamper with it with drugs or surgery. Keep quiet, keep passive,
>smile, say hi to people, but keep your soul and thoughts to yourself.
>Otherwise, you force people into the position of silencing you by death or
>mental incapacitation, or have the top ranking people denounce you as
>a lunatic. And, to everyone else, you come of as just that.
>
But when people are seriously rattled and their mind is playing very
nasty tricks on them, or worse yet providing them with disinformation,
then alas drugs are often the only choice. I wouldn't see them forced
on anybody, but still one has to ask, is it better to have people freaking
out, getting possibly violent and kicking in car doors (*as a freaked
out friend of mine did for awhile*) or to provide them with drugs.
Drugs just seem to be a much better solution.

>Make no further postings, to keep your name out of trouble. Drop out of
>all sight and human contact. Take a vacation from your worries.
>

Well it might make others lives more relaxed but I dunno if it will
make the person refered to very. One freaked out housemate some years
ago kept making noises: "I just want to be left alone; I didn't ask
for any of this; I just want to live a quiet life" He would then go
out and do awhole lot to attract attention and get the police interested.


>When you have completed this, we shall contact you again. Until then,
>Klatu verada nicto, todo nakatei.
>
>--
>Randolph S. Vance
>[e-mail] (NeXT Mail)
>
>QUOTE: "I'll watch some TV, it'll help me to RELAX!" -Ren Hoek

Despite all the apparently disparaging things I have said, I still
can't help agreeing with Jonathan Vankin, who wrote >Conspiracies,
Cover-Ups and Crimes< (A good book which I reccomend) who said:
"There appears to be no word for rational but intense fear."
I will leave it all at that.


            Have fun,
            Sends Steve


[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Ghostbusters.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:27:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Ghost Watchers: I just got back from The Moss Beach Distillery
Resturant and rather than being a ghostbuster we nearly got busted
ourselves.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:31:32 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 31

Subject: Atlantis, What Was It Like? Part 2.
  This is a continuation of our first information about Atlantis.  Remember
that when we speak of Atlantis being very advanced it is on bad thing for us
because some of us lived there and in Lemuria during past lives. So in a way
we are talking about ourselves.
   We now continue with the information;....According to the Edgar Cayce
readings and Plato the Atlanteans seemed to have used metals extensively,
such as the fabled metal orichaic, whose name translates from the Greek as
mountain copper. It may have been a native form of copper, or as some feel,
it could have been an alloy containing copper and iron or copper and gold.
Cayce spoke of two different types of alloys that contained copper which
possessed special properties. One of thes alloys was used in the
construction of the capstone for the Great Pyramid of Giza. He described it
as , "the apex that  has been long since removed by the sons of Heth, the
crown or apex was made of metal that was to be indestructible being of
copper, brass and gold with other alloys that were prepared by those of that
period."  Presumably, these Atlantean alloys were forged in a direct current
electric arc.  Cayce also described alloys that were used for the braces of
their airships," the metals that were used as the braces were the
combinations of what is now the lost art of tempered brass, the temperament
of that as becomes between aluminum and that of uranium, with those of the
fluxes that are from those of the combined elements of the iron, that is
carbonized with those of other fluxes.  These made for lightness of
structure, nonconductors or conductors of the electrical forces used for the
impelling of same, rather than the gases which were used as the lifting."
(JW Anyway Atlantis was quite a place.)
The End.
Source of Information: UNICUS, THE MAGAZINE OF EARTHBOUND EXTRATERRESTRIALS.
VOL.2, NO.1 1992. PAGE 18. 1142 MANHATTAN AVE. SUITE 43, MANHATTAN BEACH, CA
90266.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Mistake.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 21:47:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folk: The article, Atlantis. What Was It Like Part 2 should have
been posted in another group. That's the first mistake I've made for the
last 10 minutes.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Space People Zap Hubble Telescope.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 06:18:08 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

Subject: Space People Zap Hubble Telescope.
   I have been holding some information for quite a while about the Hubble
Telescope. Maybe it is time to put out the information, so here goes;.... A
top - secret NASA report reveals it wasn't human error that wrecked the
orbiting Hubble Telescope.  It was most liskely the result of sabatage by
CAMERA-SHY ALIENS!
  Presidnet Bush has been made aware of the shocking revelation, but space
agency officials have convinced him not to make the details public for fear
of causing a panic.
  Sources inside NASA say the $1.5 billion space observatory was probably
attacked by an alien craft to prevent it from photgraphing secret military
installations operated by an alien civilization in a distant galaxy.
  Officially, they blame the problem on engineering mistakes and a "flawed
mirror."  But a highly placed inside source says that's poppycok.  "The
Hubble is a showcase satellite - the most expensive ever built," the
official explained.
  "I can assure you that its mirrors were repeatedly tested by the most
capable scientists in the world and found to operate perfectly.  If there'd
been a flaw, you can bet we'd have fixed it before we sent it aloft.
  "NASA officials are just trying to put the best face on this astonding
development to stop alarm spreading among the public.
  "The overwhelming evidence points to a mysterious alien force that  zapped
our satelite and rendered its lens inoperable."
  Top UFOlogist Hayden Foster confirmed: "I've been told by a highly placed
sorce inside NASA that an alien attack is the most likely explanation.
President Bush has been made aware of this. Nothing is being said publicly
because of White House fears that it may cause panic.
  "These aliens undoubtedly see our celestial surveillance as a first step
toward invasion and occupation of their domain. They't determined to nip it
in the bud.
JW It seems like I remember my Guru telling me something about another
telescope being zapped before also.
Source of Information: July 24. 1990 EXAMINER PAGE 3.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Atlantis, What Was It Like?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 06:28:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear People of Earth: I'll try to answer some of those questions just
as soom as I can find some answers.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Space People Zap Hubble Telescope.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 18:40:41 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

Subject: Space People Zap Hubble Telescope.
   I have been holding some information for quite a while about the Hubble
Telescope. Maybe it is time to put out the information, so here goes;.... A
top - secret NASA report reveals it wasn't human error that wrecked the
orbiting Hubble Telescope.  It was most liskely the result of sabatage by
CAMERA-SHY ALIENS!
  Presidnet Bush has been made aware of the shocking revelation, but space
agency officials have convinced him not to make the details public for fear
of causing a panic.
  Sources inside NASA say the $1.5 billion space observatory was probably
attacked by an alien craft to prevent it from photgraphing secret military
installations operated by an alien civilization in a distant galaxy.
  Officially, they blame the problem on engineering mistakes and a "flawed
mirror."  But a highly placed inside source says that's poppycok.  "The
Hubble is a showcase satellite - the most expensive ever built," the
official explained.
  "I can assure you that its mirrors were repeatedly tested by the most
capable scientists in the world and found to operate perfectly.  If there'd
been a flaw, you can bet we'd have fixed it before we sent it aloft.
  "NASA officials are just trying to put the best face on this astonding
development to stop alarm spreading among the public.
  "The overwhelming evidence points to a mysterious alien force that  zapped
our satelite and rendered its lens inoperable."
  Top UFOlogist Hayden Foster confirmed: "I've been told by a highly placed
sorce inside NASA that an alien attack is the most likely explanation.
President Bush has been made aware of this. Nothing is being said publicly
because of White House fears that it may cause panic.
  "These aliens undoubtedly see our celestial surveillance as a first step
toward invasion and occupation of their domain. They't determined to nip it
in the bud.
JW It seems like I remember my Guru telling me something about another
telescope being zapped before also.
Source of Information: July 24. 1990 EXAMINER PAGE 3.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hour Of The Cooper
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 18:52:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Cooper Listeners: Please tell us what freq. WWCR broadcasts on and
what city or cities broadcast the program.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Frank Stranges and Valient Thor.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 19:28:35 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 27

Subject: Stranges Gets Beat Up.
  As most of you probably know by now, I like Frank Stranges and his work that
he has done with a space man from Venus by the name of Valient Thor (or Val
as his friends call him.)
  Here's some information about what kind of treatment Mr. Stranges gets when
he talks about UFOs;......There's a bizarre and mysterious sequel to Dr.
Frank Stranges' encounter with an E. T. in Washington.  He tells of
subsequent sinister incidents, which he describes as "forms of harassment."
  Stranges, who is president of the National Investigations Committee on UFOs,
recalls:  "When I returned to New York City from Washington, I was met at
the airport by FBI agents who interrogated me for three hours, including a
polygraph test.
  "In November 1987, in Mainz, Germany, I was to lecture on UFOs, based in
part on my experience at the Pentagon.  Two supposed reporters interviewed
me at a restaurant about Valiant Thor. They vanished after I was called away
from the table.
  "But after eating my soup, I fell deathly ill because it had been poisoned.
  "Fortunantely,l my life was saved, but this appeared to be an attempt to
keep me quiet!
  "In January 1974, I was due at a meeting in Las Vegas. Two men in black met
me at the airport in a black limo.  After driving a few blocks, they pulled
over, pushed me out and beat me up!
  "Those wishing to keep me quiet about my Pentagon experince will not
prevail, whether they be government agents or alien beings!"
JW Franks Stranges has been at it for more than 20 years.
Source of Information: May 5, 1992 EXAMINER. Page 10.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: A Pet For Kibo.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:23:22 PST
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Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36

Subject: Kibo's Pet.
  I was just thinking of a pet that I might send the Great and Noble Kibo.
Maybe the following would be pleasing to him;.....A boogie-woogie bat named
Alvie already has four hit records under his wing and is getting ready to
start his first European concert tour!
  And if the tour is a success, the beady-eyed bat could be bringing his act
to the United States early in 1993.
  "We never dreamed we could take a bat and turn him into a superstar
overnight, but that's just what's happened," said astonished Saul Boeta,
sales manager for Spain's Bravissimo Records.
  "This little guy is really incredible.  He's got almost perfect pitch and a
singing style that's all his own."
  Alvie's hits all reached the top 10 on European music charts, with his
version of Great Balls of Fire going all the way to No. 1.
  If he tours in the U.S. his previous hits will likely be released here.
  The cave-dwelling crooner got his big break when animal lover Afredo Vega
found him hobbling through the wilds outside Zaragoza, Spain.
  "He'd hurt his wing pretty bad, so my wife and I took him home and fixed him
up,"  Alfredo recalled.  "People think bats are nasty creatures, but Alvie
is the most loving little guy you could imagine.
  "He wanted to spend all his time with us, and pretty soom he was singing
along to all our  favorite records.  He couldn't sing the words, of course,
but he had a nice little voice for a bat. He liked all kinds of music, but
he was crazy about Jerrry Lee Lewis and Carmen Miranda."
  Alfredo was so sure he had a star on his hands, he called a buddy at
Bravissimo Records.  The next day, a couple of talent scouts were dispatched
to audition the rocking runt.
  "Our talent boys were griping about having to go listen to some screwy bat
sing, but the minute they heard him they changed their tune," sales manager
Saul told a reporter.
  "They rushed him into the studio and the next thing we knew, he was making
hit records.  A concert tour is the next logical step - and we're sure it'll
be a huge success."
JW I never had a bat like that but I once taught a crow how to talk.
Source of Information: Some pulp magazine.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SIGH!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:28:25 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Lines: 3

Dear Folks: It is my humble opinion that Blondie is a breath of
fresh air and just what we need around here.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Blue Lady
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:34:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Lines: 2

Dear Card Players: She was at Moss Beach just like always.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Scientifo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:42:01 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Seekers of Truth: I will attempt to send the gentleman some
information.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 06:14:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Posters: Well, it seems that Mr. Kibo always gets in the last
word.  It seems also that Portal is withholding some of my postings.
I detect a diabolical plot. Probably soon it will spew forth a great
deal of pertinent information that will undoubtedly enlighten the
world and cure all our problems.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 06:18:01 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Knowledge Eaters: For some reason or another my postions from
floppy disks have not been coming through from portal. Len must have
pronounced some cure of my system.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 06:36:50 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Dear Mistake Makers: If you can't be good at doing something be good
at making imistakes. There is a lot of that going iaround. For some
ungodly reason my postings have not been coming out properly from
Portal. This most stop. The world has to know. Very serious folks, but
then some people like it serious. Here's hoping your all happy. In
answer to Blondie, I was using an ESP device to contact the Lady in Blue
at the Moss Beach Distillery Restaurant monday evening the 22nd of march.
The device is called  Window To Infinity. It has a triangular pointer
to get information with. This probably isn't what you referring too,
but then you can't win them all.
John Winston.  The Window To Infinity was given to me by a person on
the Net by the name of Kumar.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Slander!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 18:33:14 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Sirius People: I always am a little skeptical when some space
person uses my name. I don't consider my trip with the space people
to be an abduction, I wanted to go and enjoyed it the most.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] ( )
Subject: Re: Bell Schmell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 03:41:24 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (jcj) writes:
>Matthew Zenkar writes:
>
>>What about the Billy Meir metal samples that were given to Bell labs in
>>Europe?  They supposedly had superconducting properties.  They disappeared
>>and now look where some of the recent advances in superconducting technology
>>came out of.  BELL LABS.
>
>As a former Bell Labs employee, to the best of my knowledge, there is
>no AT&T Bell Labs location in Europe nor was there ever one.  Can any
>current employees prove me wrong?
>

Maybe he's thinking of the IBM guys working in Europe that won the Nobel.
New superconducting technology is presently based on ceramics, not
metals, so wrong on at least one count.


BS

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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: A Pet For Kibo.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 06:03:39 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> Subject: Kibo's Pet.
>   I was just thinking of a pet that I might send the Great and Noble Kibo.
> Maybe the following would be pleasing to him;.....A boogie-woogie bat named
> Alvie already has four hit records under his wing and is getting ready to
> start his first European concert tour!

I move we take up a collection so that John_-_Winston can buy me Alvie.

(Hmm, I'd probably get around to returning John_-_'s videotape sooner if
he sent me a free bat, too.)
                        -- K.

                        But it's the thought
                        that counts.

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 21:07:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: That should have been a curse.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14552 alt.alien.visitors:14870 sci.skeptic:41303 alt.religion.kibology:7680
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From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 06:11:51 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Posters: Well, it seems that Mr. Kibo always gets in the last
> word.  It seems also that Portal is withholding some of my postings.
> I detect a diabolical plot. Probably soon it will spew forth a great
> deal of pertinent information that will undoubtedly enlighten the
> world and cure all our problems.

That's nothing.  Tomorrow I'm going to post my paper which disproves the
four-color map theorem for once and all.  And of course you know I'm not
a wacko, because no wacko could POSSIBLY disprove the four-color map
theorem!

Next week, Fermat's last theorem.

                            -- K.
From: [e-mail] (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 16:50:34 GMT
Subject: 500000 yr old spark plugs and Charles Fort
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Mfg. Test Div., Loveland, CO
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Lines: 46

I wrote to the International Fortean Organization (formerly the
Charles Fort Society), that investigated the Coso artifact (the
500,000 year old "spark plug"), and received a copy of the INFO
Journal that addressed the artifact (Vol. 1, #4, Spring, 1969).
They also sent some literature on the organization.  Here's a
thumbnail sketch:

The artifact was discovered by owners of the LM&V Rockhounds
Gem and Gift Shop in Olancha, CA on Feb. 13, 1961, on a 4300 foot
peak six miles NE of Olancha and 340 feet above Owens Lake (a dry
lake bed).  Geologists think that 1000 years ago, Owens Lake rose
to the spot where the artifact was found.

The author of the article did not personally inspect the artifact.
Another INFO member who lived in California went over to the
people's house and saw the rock.  One of the owners, Virginia Maxey,
stated in _Desert Magazine_ in Feb., 1961, that the metal core
responds to a magnet, but at the time of the visit, she retracted
that statement.  Her partner, Wallace Lane, stated that the object
was for sale for $25000.  The Smithsonian was interested in it,
but no one really wanted to spend that much for what might be just
an old rusty spark plug.  The article states that no scientific
analysis has ever been performed on the object.

The rockhounds broke a diamond saw cutting through the material.

Originals of this INFO Journal issue are not available, so the copy
does not show very good detail of the photos and X-rays.  If you
live in the Washington D.C. area, you may be able to visit them.

My opinion:  Although it could be a hoax to get money, more likely
the rockhounds really found something interesting and tried to make
some money off it.  I doubt that they cared much what it really was.

---------
The Fortean Organization is a non-profit organization dedicated to a
study of the unexplained, and all contributions beyond membership
dues are tax deductible.  Memberships are $12, and that gets you 4
seasonal issues of the INFO Journal.  For more information, write to
them at PO Box 367, Arlington, VA 22210-0367.

(I personally have nothing to gain from this, and am not a current
member of INFO.  I pass this along as information only).

Brian

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: FILE: Aliens at U.S. Bases
Date: 25 Mar 1993 08:20:36 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab
Lines: 11
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydroman.cs.hut.fi


Am I correct?

US can hide aliens decades without anyone getting real evidence, but
it's governments and presidents can't even keep their own secrets few
months? (water- Iran- etc. gates)

Just wondering...

/T

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From: [e-mail] (I am an android..)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Slander!
Date: 25 Mar 1993 08:48:48 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dumbo.cc.utexas.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]Dear Sirius People: I always am a little skeptical when some space
]person uses my name. I don't consider my trip with the space people
]to be an abduction, I wanted to go and enjoyed it the most.
]John Winston.

Good for you. Next time stay there please. Of course, you might consider
if there is a reason why the aliens brought you *back* home.

--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Patrick Chester   (aka: claypigeon)         [e-mail]|
|If the Earth is our Cradle, then why are we still here?               |
|Everything your side says is Truth. All else is Propaganda....        |
|I only speak for myself. If I *did* speak for UT, would anyone listen?|
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 25 Mar 1993 12:13:45 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<1oqnvu$[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1oqnvu$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
=>Well, you made a rather astoundingly stupid claim.  Suppose you tell us what
=>new-age beliefs are younger than science?  Please be specific.
=
=That is not what I said; if I did say that, that would be stupid, yes.
=The beliefs most new-agers have have been around for millenia.  But I
=didn't say beliefs and I didn't limit my comments to the scope of
=new agers, now did I?

In that case, could you please explain to us what you meant by your statement
that (I'm quoting from memory here) "our spiritual maturity is younger than
science."  Just what do you mean by "spiritual maturity" and what evidence do
you have that the level of same has changed significantly in the past three
centuries or so?

=>=Tone that post down a bit, and I will gladly
=>=respond to any critiques/concerns you may have with what I have to say.
=>Start providing evidence for your claims and I'll tone down my posts.
=
=Any evidence I could provide here would be ignored by someone with the
=attitude that you display.

Gee.  I guess that's one of your claims as a psychic-in-training?  You'll have
to put a lot more work into your mastery of telepathic skills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Starwars & Moon Bases
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 14:50:34 GMT
Lines: 265


Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Russia's OPERATIONAL Starwars Defense System
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Mar 93 16:50:13 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire



                 RUSSIA'S OPERATIONAL STARWARS DEFENSE SYSTEM

               In February 1992, Russian President Boris Yeltsin
          proposed to the United States and the United Nations a global
          defense shield (with "Star Wars"-type weapons) BASED ON
          RUSSIAN TECHNOLOGY.

               Some people might wonder what the "backward" Russians
          could possibly have that would be of value for the S.D.I.
          research and development program.

               The little-known TRUTH is that the Russians started
          deploying an OPERATIONAL "Star Wars" defense system in
          September 1977, and it has greatly grown and improved since
          that time.  It is a SPACE TRIAD built around CHARGED-PARTICLE
          BEAM and NEUTRON PARTICLE BEAM WEAPONS.

               In this article I will describe the Russian system as it
          developed from 1977 to 1983, and give several examples of how
          it was used during that period.  But first I will try to
          convince readers of the credibility of my main source of
          information about it.

               My main source is articles published in a weekly
          legislative newspaper, WISCONSIN REPORT (WR), of Brookfield,
          Wisconsin, (P.O. Box 45, zip 53005), written by the late Dr.
          Peter David Beter, a well-respected Washington, DC attorney,
          Doctor of Jurisprudence, and expert and consultant in
          international law, finance, and intelligence, who received
          much of his information from associates in the CIA and other
          intelligence groups of other countries who disapproved of
          many of the things happening or being planned behind the
          scenes.  They believed that at least limited public exposure
          might delay and ultimately prevent the worst of those things,
          such as NUCLEAR WAR and NATIONAL DICTATORSHIP, from taking
          place.

               Dr. Beter started appearing on local radio and TV talk
          shows, but soon found himself being BANNED from them, as a
          result of government THREATS to cancel broadcast licenses.
          So he started producing monthly one-hour cassette tapes and
          sending them to a growing list of subscribers.  From June 21,
          1975 until November 3, 1982 he recorded eighty (80) "Dr.
          Beter Audio Letters", plus eight "Audio Books", and three
          special topic tapes.  On September 1, 1977 Wisconsin Report
          started publishing transcripts of those Audio Letters.

               Based on information from his sources, Dr. Beter
          PREDICTED the bombing of the Marines in Beirut A FULL YEAR
          BEFORE IT HAPPENED, WARNING that the U.S. Pentagon and the
          Israeli Mossad were CONSPIRING TO DELIBERATELY ARRANGE IT in
          order to try to get Americans angry at the Arabs and generate
          public support for PLANNED military action against them.  He
          reported the impending assassination of Anwar Saddat of Egypt
          SIX DAYS BEFORE IT HAPPENED.  And Dr. Beter predicted what he
          called the "retirement" of Leonid Brezhnev one week before
          Brezhnev officially "died", [note that the word "retirement"
          was used for the TERMINATION OF REPLICANTS in the 1982 movie
          "Blade Runner"], and his quick replacement with Andropov
          which occurred only three days after the "death" of Brezhnev,
          to the surprise of all government and media analysts.
          Subscription application and renewal forms for Dr. Beter's
          tapes would usually say, "Subscribe to the Dr. Beter Audio
          Letter and watch the news start making sense."



          RUSSIA'S SPACE TRIAD OF STAR WARS WEAPONS

               In September 1977 the Russians started launching MANNED
          killer satellites, called "COSMOS INTERCEPTORS", armed with
          CHARGED-PARTICLE BEAM weapons, into earth orbit, (12-15-77
          WR; and Dr. Beter Audio Letter (AL) #27, Topic 1). By April
          1978 there were about THREE DOZEN of them, and they had
          FINISHED DESTROYING all American spy and early warning
          satellites, (5-18-78 WR, and AL #33, Topic 2).

               On September 27, 1977, in what Dr. Beter called "THE
          BATTLE OF THE HARVEST MOON", a Cosmos Interceptor in Earth
          orbit used a NEUTRON-PARTICLE BEAM to wipe out a secret
          American laser-beam base nearing operational status in
          Copernicus Crater on the Moon, (11-3-77 WR; and AL #26, Topic
          1).  The Russians quickly deployed their own military bases
          on the Moon, the second leg of their space triad, starting on
          October 4, 1977, with seven EXTREMELY POWERFUL charged-
          particle beam weapons BASES on the near side of the Moon and
          three support bases on the far side, (2-9-78 WR; and AL #29,
          Topic 1).

               The first test of the Moon base weapons occurred on
          November 19, 1977, ironically at about the same time as the
          release of the first "Star Wars" movie with its "death star"
          weapon.  The Russians were aiming at the eye of a cyclone
          near India.  But they miscalculated the deflection of the
          beam by the Earth's magnetic field, and the beam struck the
          ocean too close to the shore causing a TIDAL WAVE that killed
          many people, (2-9-78 WR; and AL #29, Topic 1).  A blast of
          charged-particle beams from two or more of the Russian Moon
          bases fired in quick succession would create the DESTRUCTIVE
          EFFECT OF A HYDROGEN BOMB on its target.

               The third leg of Russia's triad of space weapons is the
          "COSMOSPHERES".  The first-generation Cosmospheres were
          weapons platforms that were ELECTRO-GRAVITIC (could hover
          against gravity), ATOMIC POWERED, horizontally positioned by
          rocket thrusters, somehow invisible to radar beyond about 40
          miles (perhaps from a radar-absorbing coating), armed with
          CHARGED-PARTICLE BEAM weapons (at least a hundred times less
          powerful than those in the Moon bases), equipped with
          "PSYCHO-ENERGETIC RANGE FINDING" (PRF) which tunes in to the
          actual ATOMIC SIGNATURE of a target or object and canNOT be
          jammed, and some of them were also armed with microwave
          BRAIN-SCRAMBLING equipment.

               In late 1977 and early 1978, there was a strange rash of
          giant AIR BOOMS along the east coast of the United States and
          elsewhere.  These air booms were NEVER satisfactorily
          explained, by either the government, the scientific
          establishment, or the news media.  They could NOT be
          positively identified with any particular Super Sonic
          Transport plane (SST) or other aircraft, and indeed they were
          MUCH LOUDER than aircraft sonic booms.  The giant airbooms
          were actually caused by Russian Cosmospheres firing CHARGED-
          PARTICLE BEAMS down into the atmosphere in a DEFOCUSED MODE
          (spread out) for the purpose of announcing their presence to
          the WAR-MONGERS in the United States Pentagon, (2-9-78 WR;
          and AL #29, Topic 1).


               The main purpose of any "Star Wars" defense system is to
          protect a country against nuclear attack.  During the weekend
          of January 20, 1980, Russian Cosmospheres accomplished such a
          mission.  A NUCLEAR FIRST STRIKE against Russia by the then
          BOLSHEVIK-CONTROLLED United States was being started with a
          total of 82 special secret aircraft that can sneak up to a
          country's shoreline under water, surface, change
          configuration, take off, and fly at treetop level to their
          targets.  Dr. Beter describes part of the action in his Audio
          Letter #53, recorded on January 21, 1980: "At that point the
          real action got under way, in the Caspian Sea and off
          northern Norway.  The Subcraft, with Israeli pilots, were on
          their way.  They were traveling under water on the first legs
          of their attack missions....

          "Late Saturday night, Washington time, a coded signal was
          flashed to the Subcraft to continue as planned.  By that
          time, the northern contingent of Subcraft were in the White
          Sea.  The southern contingent had reached the north end of
          the Caspian Sea.  It was already daylight, Sunday morning,
          the 20th, for the Subcraft contingents.  Their orders were to
          wait out the day under water, out of sight; then, after
          nightfall, they were to continue their steady approach to get
          close to their targets.  The Subcraft were maintaining strict
          radio silence.  They were also deep enough under water to be
          invisible from the air to either the eye or radar, yet they
          were also hugging the shoreline in water too shallow for
          Russian sonar to pick them up.  And their infrared signatures
          were negligible as the result of extensive development.  In
          short, by the standards of Western technology, they were
          undetectable.  But in AUDIO LETTER No. 42 I revealed Russia's
          master secret weapon.  It is called "Psycho-energetic Range
          Finding" or PRF.  It is unlike sonar and similar techniques.
          PRF tunes in to the actual atomic signature of a target, and
          there is no method known by which PRF can be jammed.

               "By deploying their Navy to the Arabian Sea, the
          Russians are pretending to be fooled by the Bolshevik
          distraction with the aircraft carriers.  In this way they
          encouraged the Bolsheviks to launch the Subcraft toward their
          targets.  They waited until the Subcraft were far away from
          their bases and out of sight of the Bolsheviks, who are
          directing the American first-strike operation.  But the whole
          time they were being tracked by Cosmospheres overhead using
          PRF, and shortly after 1:00 A.M. yesterday morning Eastern
          Standard Time the Cosmospheres began firing their Charged
          Particle Beam Weapons.  There were 10 Subcraft in the White
          Sea.  Each disappeared in a blinding blue white water spout
          of steam, smoke, and fire.  In the north end of the Caspian
          there were 19 Subcraft--they, too, met the same fate.", (2-7-
          80 WR; and AL #53, Topic 3).


               The 3rd-generation Russian JUMBO COSMOSPHERES were first
          deployed in April 1981, in parallel with the first U.S. Space
          Shuttle mission.  They significantly interfered with that
          MILITARY mission, in ways which were successfully covered up
          by NASA using techniques similar to those shown in the movie
          "Capricorn I", (5-7-81, 5-14-81, and 5-21-81 WR; and AL #64,
          Topics 1-3).

               Jumbo Cosmospheres are much larger than the 1st-
          generation models, and use ELECTROMAGNETIC PROPULSION instead
          of rocket thrusters to move around.

               For about two years after Dr. Beter stopped recording
          his Audio Letters in November 1982 (because of heart
          trouble), his distributor, Audio Books, Inc., published some
          newsletters titled "NewsALERT", using information passed on
          to them by Dr. Beter or received directly from his sources.
          A special supplementary issue, dated March 26, 1984,
          describes how Russian Jumbo Cosmospheres captured two
          communication satellites right after launch from U.S. Space
          Shuttle Mission #10, found anti-satellite (ASAT) missiles
          mounted on one of them, and dumped both satellites into
          useless orbits.  NASA had fun TRYING to explain two-in-a-row
          failures of a highly reliable PAM-D satellite booster.

               Russia's offer to share their "Star Wars" defense system
          with the rest of the world might also extend to SCIENTIFIC
          SPACE EXPLORATION.  For example, the United States is
          planning to send two unmanned flyby and sample-return space
          missions to a comet.  These missions would cost BILLIONS of
          dollars, take fifteen years from now to complete, and could
          FAIL in DOZENS of ways.  A Russian Jumbo Cosmosphere could
          complete a MANNED version of such a mission in a matter of
          MONTHS, if they have not already done so, since these
          Cosmospheres can accelerate continuously.

               Note that the United States has announced a deal to
          purchase at least one SPACE REACTOR from Russia.  Now you
          know what the Russians originally developed and used them
          for.



               ALL 80 Dr. Beter Audio Letters have been digitized by
          Jon Volkoff at email address "[e-mail]" and are
          available from him or from several FTP sites where he has
          sent them.  I especially recommend Audio Letters #64, 74, 40,
          53, 54, 55, 45, 46, 47, 48, 78, 79, and 80.



               For more information, and answers to your questions,
          please consult my CITED SOURCES.



               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.

                                   Robert E. McElwaine
                                   B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC



--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


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From: [e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Atlantis, What Was It Like?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Mar 93 14:01:01 GMT
References: <1oqgkj$[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 40

[e-mail] (Mark E. Bradley) writes:

>
> In a previous article, [e-mail] (dolan andrew) says:
> >iPlato wrote about 600 BC, saying that atlantis vanished 9,000 years before
>
> This won't do.  You have too many errors in this text.  I'll help.
>
> I, Plato, wrote during the approximate year 600 BC.  In the text, I postulate
> that Atlantis vanished 9,000 years before its time.  I wrote this 11,600 year
> ago.  Look ye up the story in the Critias and Timaeus.
>
> Please be clearer in the future.
>
> Mark
>
> R%xG-hH(tL'rB#aM~cD|hN@eN$lT#wI"aO$nD*tA:tQ=oX{wM+aP<rG|lY`oV-rC;dR*tZ#hN&iO_
> o Mark  Bradley - fourth year English graduate student
> , [e-mail]                                  ^
> U       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- I _ALWAYS_ capitalize        / \  ____
> j                                the address of the          / | \ |  |
> :                                World's First Free          | | | |  |
> J "I before E, except when       Computing System            | | | |  |
> p  you aren't spelling."                                     | | | |  |
> @                       -- Me                                |-|-| |--|
> T                                                             Join the
> k  .sig still under construction (see?)                  CLEVELAND FREE-NET!
> #Bd_Jw%Uo!Pn(Ff.Iq=Kw[Gh$Sl'En$Hu:Au_Fy]Wy>Do#Cv,Id(Ob$Dv\Gs{Ql/Bk?Rm(Ys~Hd{S
>
>
> R%xG-hH(tL'rB#aM~cD|hN@eN$lT#wI"aO$nD*tA:tQ=oX{wM+aP<rG|lY`oV-rC;dR*tZ#hN&iO_
> o Mark  Bradley - fourth year English graduate student
> , [e-mail]                                  ^
> U       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- I _ALWAYS_ capitalize        / \  ____

Wet. Very wet.

------
[e-mail] (Marquis de Freud)
The Cellar BBS - [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 MAR 93 10:10:17
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Norman Morin) writes...
>I don't have the estimate with me, but back in an Astrophysics
>course from my undergrad days at Michigan the professor said
>that from the estimated mass of the asteroid belt (and
>accounting for some being leached away) the size of
>the planet from which the asteroid belt would have'
>been quite small.

Yes, this is true. As recall, it would have been no bigger than Earth's moon.
Being that small, it would most likely have been a dead lump of rock, with
little or no atmosphere.

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 06:24:27 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear People: It appears that Portal and Kibo are up and running in
good order again. Last night they had a rerun of the Moss Beach
Distillery Restaurant and the Lady in Blue ghost. I hope to sometime
in the future investigate a haunted hotel over in Scott's Valley
near Santa Cruz, Calif. We hope to sleep overnight in the hotel.
Maybe it will come to pass.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 06:27:19 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Thinkers: Tomorrow I'm going to have to get my stuff together
and get organized.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 06:32:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Bat Lovers: The next time I go to Death Valley I may try to
catch a bat but then they do have a lot of diseases and they bit
like nobody's business.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 06:41:04 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Blond Joke Tellers: I believe you will find that not especially
all, everytimes, always, space people are nude. Sometimes they are.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A challenge...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 06:46:38 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Challenge Makers: I hope this is going to get to the lady
with the blond hair. I'm going to tell the space people what you said.
They will not take this laying down.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 25 Mar 1993 17:05:40 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 101
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<1oqq4c$[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1oqq4c$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
=The evidence _you_ have received.  I have garnered much different evidence.

Then post references to it.  Of course, if it's anecdotal evidence, this will
be rather difficult, and the "evidence" next to worthless, but post the
anecdotal evidence in detail.

=And, in my exepriences with others, even providing such evidence.  As for the
=newsgroup 'sci.skeptic', it appears like a hangout for a lot of skeptics
=to support each others skepticism.  :>  I hangout at places like '#Wicca'
=on the Internet Relay Chat, where people gather and share experiences that
=support their pro-psychic beliefs.

Ah, how about posting some of that evidence and see how well it stands up to
skeptical scrutiny.  Unless, of course, you've so little confidence in the
evidence that you're afraid to see it subjected to such scrutiny.

=>=First of all, I dont believe in coincidence or luck.
=>Gee.  That means that if someone tosses a fair coin ten times and it comes up
=>heads every time, that MUST be due to psychic powers, right?  Well, I've got
=
=That was not my implication.  I believe that many, many things can happen
=may appear to be coincidental and such, but my beliefs prevent me from
=believing any one event is 'inherently' coincidental.

Have you considered the possibility that those events that "appear
coincidental" ARE coincidental?

=>I didn't say that ALL so-called "psychic powers" are based on coincidence.  At
=>least some such claims are based on fraud.  Suppose you tell us of some
=>specific, well-documented cases supporting your claims?  (Remember?  I asked
=>you for just this sort of thing in a previous post, and you still haven't
=>answered.  At this point, I'm inclined to believe that you simply don't know of
=>any such cases, and are relying on rumor to support your delusions).
=
=Well, the fraud theory is an easy explanation.  No matter how 'good' a person
=is at his 'trick', it's still a 'trick', and thus a mixture of sleight of
=hand and hidden strings.

It may be easy, but it certainly seems to be valid in all the cases that have
been subjected to scrutiny by experts in the field of sleight-of-hand,
mentalism, and other aspects of stage magic.

=Coincidence breaks down quickly, however, when the
=probabilities get out beyond the one-in-a-million range.

You've GOT to be kidding.  If there's a one-in-a-million chance of something
happening, then, by definition, it will happen on average once in every million
trials.  There are now about 5 billion people on this planet.  That means that
if every one of them were to test for such an event once a day, 1000 of them
per day would see the coincidence occur.  Conversely, if, every day, you
experience one million situations in which a one-in-a-million coincidence COULD
happen, then on average you'll see one such coincidence every day.

=You make a call for
=Documented Evidence.  It exists; do some research and you should find
=plenty.

Yeah, and I could also spend years reading of reports that turn out to CLAIM
there's evidence, but for which there is none.  So I ask you again:  You claim
that such evidence exists.  Tell me precisely where to find it.  Your
coutinuing failure to provide a specific answer to this question makes me doubt
that you know where to find such evidence.  Come on:  PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

=I don't rely on rumor for my 'delusions' (as you so rudely put it),
=tho.  I rely on my own inherent psychic abilities to convince me of MY
=delusions.

Please, cut the crap and come up with something specific.

=Everything you read can be written by a group of pro-psychic
=deluded insane conspiracists,

Who said anything about conspiracy?  It doesn't take a conspiracy for millions
of people to believe bullshit.

=and this response could _actually_ be written
=by a well-written nethack modification.  I could give you plenty of the
=experiences _I_ have had recently, but I have a feeling you will only
=interpret them as more delusions of a raving paranoid fanatic.

Or, most likely, explain why the experiences aren't as significant as you
believe they are.  Or possibly be convinced.  But as long as you play this
"there's lots of evidence out there, but I won't tell you where it is" game,
you're just convincing me that you don't have enough confidence in that
evidence to permit it to be subjected to skeptical review.

=If you should approach me in a more _polite_, objective frame of mind, then
=I will tell you of my first hand experiences with the paranormal, but not
=until then.

Let's see:  OBJECTIVE == "Willing to believe Richard Temps' unsubstantiated
claims without reservation," right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Sandy O'Donnell)
Subject: Re: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 18:58:49 GMT
Lines: 14

>
>     It would take one hell of a nuclear weapon to blow up a whole planet.
>I've wondered if one could turn jupiter into a giant hydrogen bomb (or one of
>the other gas giants).
>
 The Death Star could do it, even if it wasn't completed.
*****************************************************************************
All that is gold does not glitter,
  Not all those who wander are lost;  jrrt

                                     I sit beside the vax and think
                                      of all that I have read
                                     Of posts and replies and silly sigs
                                      and wonder where I'll be led
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From: [e-mail] (Matthew Zenkar)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Where *is* the Alleged Implant? (was: Sagan vs. A Legitimate Psychiatrist
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Mar 93 17:12:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Moscom Corp., E. Rochester, NY
Lines: 60
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

Stuff deleted<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Robert Sheaffer ([e-mail]) wrote:
: >>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
: >  Of course.  There's always an "explanation".  "He wants his privacy"
: >  "Doesn't want to create a media circus"   "Took it to a lab for
: >  analysis but they <lost it | turned out to be front for the Feds>"
: >  "It was stolen by <unknown | The Feds | MIB>"  "Sure, I'll let you
: >  have a peek at it for $1000"     Et Cetera, Et Cetera!
: >
: >  There always an excuse, there's never any physical evidence.

: Actually, this was discussed at the "Abduction Conference at M.I.T." last
: year. A certain "UFO abductee" who lives in Schenectady, NY gave half
: of his alleged "implant" to a physicist at a certain prestigious technological
: institute located along the banks of the Charles River, near Boston. The
: physicist probably realized at once that this is no 'alien machinery',
: but rather some item of biological origin such as a sliver, a thorn, or
: other foreign object that physicists are not exactly trained to recognize.
: However, this physicist also realized that he'd look like a screwball if
: he were to ask a colleague in the biological sciences for help in
: identifying an alleged 'alien artifact', *or* if any of his physics
: colleagues realized what he was up to, so he has basically sat on this
: thing for two years or more. Which pisses off the alleged "abductee"
: greatly, who was complaining about it to everyone he'd meet.

: I would tell you all about this, were I not sworn to silence by the
: most fearsome of oaths. And in any case, the proceedings of the conference
: are slowly working their way toward publication, so you can Read
: All About it there.


: --
:
:         Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
:
:  Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

:          "Marxism and feminism are one and that one is Marxism"


If this pride bound physicist dosen't think it is a real alien artifact, why
dosen't this physicist just tell the "implanted abductee" that he/she is
crazy and just out for publicity?  Why would the alleged physicist waste
valuable time on a hoax?  As to your assumption that the "physicist probably
realized at once" I find that that has no more weight than missing "artifacts".


I am not assuming that the artifact is of alien origin, but any assumptions
you make, if you want them to hold water, should, like all good science, be
backed by hard evidence, and not statements like "probably".  Such statements
should be declared "missing statements".

Matthew Zenkar

[e-mail]

or

[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Epstein [415])
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: tke@shep (Tom Epstein [415])
Nntp-Posting-Host: shep.cnet.att.com
Organization: Bell Laboratories
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1oqnvu$[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 17:33:13 GMT
Lines: 13

In article <1oqnvu$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
|>
|> Any evidence I could provide here would be ignored by someone with the
|> attitude that you display.
|>
|>                     - Richard Temps
|>

Of course there are others out here. Unless you're sure that no one
of all the people who read the net has a proper attitude to receive
your evidence, why not present it for them?

-- Tom Epstein
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: A challenge...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV Computer Science and Robotics Engineering
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 19:37:15 GMT
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^Dear Challenge Makers: I hope this is going to get to the lady
^with the blond hair. I'm going to tell the space people what you said.
^They will not take this laying down.
^John Winston.

    If they know where I am already perhaps ask them to describe
the surroundings... Then post them here and then I'll set up a
dinner date... I'm not joking... Just get me a little time: My house
is in shambles.....

            (No smiley face 'cause I mean it)

                ^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Why are all captured aliens male?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 20:29:56 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]  writes:
>    Why is it always a He that is captured by the Government.
>Ei: Ebe and Krll... Do the women up there have the same thing
>pulled on them? Like maybe they get the "safer" jobs of monitoring
>by space while the men go down and risk their butts? One can always
>smell a fake when it looks blatantly chauvanistic.........

This is just the result of the Evil Male Patriarchy (tm) trying to
oppress women.

And blatant chauvinism is quite evident in the writing of many noted
feminists, and many real women I have met as well. Your attributing this
all too human condition to men only is a sign of chauvinism in itself.

But women have claimed abductions and everything men have. Well, almost.
No men to date have claimed that they were impregnated by aliens or
that the fetuses of such pregnancies were then stolen by said aliens.

I'm surprised that you have never heard of these cases. Should I be
surprised that you confuse lack of knowledge for a knowledge of lack?

>                    ^^^^^^^BLONDIE


Rich

[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1oqnvu$[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 20:50:24 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <1oqnvu$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (case s) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

[...]

>Any evidence I could provide here would be ignored by someone with the
>attitude that you display.

There is evidence that you can provoide here?

>                    - Richard Temps
>


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1oqq4c$[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 21:06:58 GMT
Lines: 50

In article <1oqq4c$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (case s) writes:

[...]

>Well, the fraud theory is an easy explanation. No matter how 'good' a person
>is at his 'trick', it's still a 'trick', and thus a mixture of sleight of
>hand and hidden strings.  Coincidence breaks down quickly, however, when the
>probabilities get out beyond the one-in-a-million range.

Think so? Lets look at poker. Deal a hand, any hand. What are the odds
of getting this hand? Deal the next hand, what are the odds here? By this
argument, it is extremely unlikely that anyone could get an average random
poker hand. But I`ve seen it happen over and over and over again.

I just roughed the odds for a four hand game at about 1 on 158 million.

Do probability arguments really prove anything?

>                                                         You make a call for
>Documented Evidence.  It exists; do some research and you should find
>plenty.  I don't rely on rumor for my 'delusions' (as you so rudely put it),
>tho.  I rely on my own inherent psychic abilities to convince me of MY
>delusions.

Just out of curiosity, how could you tell the difference between self-delusion
and reality? How would you do a sanity check?

>            Everything you read can be written by a group of pro-psychic
>deluded insane conspiracists, and this response could _actually_ be written
>by a well-written nethack modification.  I could give you plenty of the
>experiences _I_ have had recently, but I have a feeling you will only
>interpret them as more delusions of a raving paranoid fanatic.
>
>If you should approach me in a more _polite_, objective frame of mind, then
>I will tell you of my first hand experiences with the paranormal, but not
>until then.

Odd that you should demand objectivity, while all you claim to have is
sunjective. Why are others subjective experiences any less valid than
yours, even when they disagree?

>                    Smile, you'll live longer.
>                    - Richard Temps


Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A challenge...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 13:13:26 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

>        I challenge any alien being within ear or eye shot of
>this newsgroup to find me and at least try to abduct me...
>
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE

What makes you think they would want to?

DS
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 25 Mar 1993 23:12:16 GMT
Organization: SDSU Computing Services
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Originator: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <1oqnvu$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
>science."  Just what do you mean by "spiritual maturity" and what evidence do
>you have that the level of same has changed significantly in the past three
>centuries or so?

Well for one thing, it is no longer a capital offense to steal stuff in
England.  In fact, the use of the death penalty has dropped quite a bit in
the last couple centuries.  Could that _possibly_ be a sign that we're
getting somewhere?  Hmmmm!

>=Any evidence I could provide here would be ignored by someone with the
>=attitude that you display.
>Gee.  I guess that's one of your claims as a psychic-in-training?  You'll have
>to put a lot more work into your mastery of telepathic skills.
Well, that goes without saying!  :)  Let me be more clear:  if you say to me,
'What personal evidence do you have to make you believe in psychic skills,
and then I and everyone else here will decide for ourselves whether you
are insane, stupid, or reacting in a logical fashion to the evidence
provided.'   I do not promise cold hard facts, but if you want _my_
evidence, just ask me and give me a fair chance to state my case.

            - Richard Temps

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From: [e-mail] (Duane)
Subject: Predictions on Sightings
Sender: [e-mail] (NetNews)
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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 22:13:36 GMT
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Greetings,

           Does anyone have the complete list of predictions that the group of
AWOL soldiers that were found in "Gulf Breeze Florida", made while playing with
their Ouija Board.  I believe that a few of their predictions for 93 were as
follows ... One of the worth storms of the century will happen ... (It did)
A major earthquake in Oregon ... well looks like a 5.4 ... shook up the place today.  Although a Major Quake did not happen ... 5.4 is this the start of some-
thing big.

           To repeat, does anyone have the complete list ... I would like to
know what else is on the list.


           Duane

           California  Dreaming  8)


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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Raquepas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A challenge... a.k.a. BLONDIE wants a free vacation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Mar 93 22:59:47 GMT
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>>        I challenge any alien being within ear or eye shot of
>>this newsgroup to find me and at least try to abduct me...
>>
>>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE

 Get to the back of the line BLONDIE!! I was hoping to get a ride in one
 of those really neat space- ships first. |-)

 JR

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From: [e-mail] (Hagbard Celine)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A question...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 20:29:09
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> In article <[e-mail]>
> [e-mail] (Ursula 'Fnordibo' Stafford) writes:

...

>>               Ursula "Fnordibo" Stafford  [e-mail]
                        ^^^^^^^^^^
                            |
 |--------------------------|
 |
Does this mean your are a Discordian too?


Hail Eris!

                - Hag

P.S. Do you have red hair & green eyes?

 * Origin: The Wall (2:512/250)
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From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Root Cause of CFCs (Was: Re: Space Person's Opinion of Earth People.)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Mar 93 18:13:41 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ka Chun Yu) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas) writes:
>>>If all the spray cans in the world went off all at once for 2
>>>minutes, they STILL would not equal the damage caused by one
>>>SHUTTLE rocket shot.....or one F-111.....or one any FIGHTER
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>jet or AIRLINER...........so you think that we are to blame
>>>because of ......CFCs in spray cans? Granted this adds insult to
>>>injury and I dont use spary cans wherever
>[rest deleted]
>>
>>No, CFC's are mainly released by air conditioners, auto and home,
>>and refrigerators... Thus if the Chineese decide they like western
>>style appliances, we're in big trouble...
>
>According to Prather, et al. (1990), _J. Geophysical Research_, _95_, D11,
>pp.  18583, gases emitted from solid rocket boosters such as those found on
>shuttle launches are pretty negligible compared to background.  Chlorine
>emissions from more than a dozen Shuttle and Titan IV launches each year
>result in less than a 0.6% increase above background.  Each shuttle launch
>is calculated to release 0.725 kilotons of chlorine into the stratosphere.
>Compare this to annual man-made production which is more than 1250 kilotons
>of equivalent chlorine.  What is worrisome about shuttle launches is the
>release of particulate Al2O3 which might act as seeds for ice in the lower
>stratosphere that would hasten ozone destruction.  As of this 1990 article
>I don't think any significant studies have been done on aluminum particulate
>emissions from shuttle launches.  Does anyone have any more current informa-
>tion?
>
>As for F-111's and other jet planes, I don't think their fuel contains much
>chlorine, so their contribution to stratospheric ozone destruction is doubt-
>ful.  (Although I can always be corrected.  Anyone have any more info?)
>
>>Jeff-
>
>--
>*Ka Chun Yu               * Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy       *
>*[e-mail] * Astrophysical, Planetary, and Atmospheric Sciences*
>*         --or--          * University of Colorado,  Boulder, CO 80309        *
>*[e-mail] * [phone]                                    *
Thank you Ka! I have been properly corrcted and have learned
something new which..according to the information you have
presented, I accept as true.

BTW: I still never have used spray deoderant! ;^)

Len

--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
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From: [e-mail] (case s)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 26 Mar 1993 03:30:24 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Epstein [415]) writes:
>In article <1oqnvu$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
>|> Any evidence I could provide here would be ignored by someone with the
>|> attitude that you display.
>|>
>|>                     - Richard Temps
>Of course there are others out here. Unless you're sure that no one
>of all the people who read the net has a proper attitude to receive
>your evidence, why not present it for them?
>-- Tom Epstein

THANK YOU, Tom, you're a godsend!  Since you asked in such a decent manner
(unlike Carl 'Blowtorch' Schumacher), I will present my personal anecdotes
on the phenomena.

I unfortunately have not made any logged scripts of my 'volunteer sessions'
on the places where I 'practice'.  Let me tell you exactly what I do.
Typically, when I am feeling tuned-in (actually, relaxed but active/not
sleepy), I either log onto LambdaMOO (tn lambda.parc.xerox.com 8888) or
the Internet Relay Chat system (channel #wicca).  Actually, I do this all
the time, but for right now let us assume I'm in the mood for a volunteer.
What I mean by this is I ask people I have never seen before if I can
be allowed to 'sense' various attributes of their physical descriptions.
My accuracy widely ranges.  Once I got a 90%; that means that, without
any previous knowledge of this person, just met him 10 minutes ago,
I ascertained his exact numbers on height, weight, hair/eye color, and
missed the color of his clothing.  All on the first try, i.e., there was
no prompting or 'warm/cold/higher/lower' from him.  At another time I
got absolutely nothing on a person; all of my answers were totally wrong.
I average around 50% however.  This means, half of the information I
get correct, and half of it wrong.

Now, let me do some cases here to better illustrate what I am saying.

One day, when I was first trying this stuff, a person that I will call
'Bill' came into the channel #wicca.  I promptly asked him to volunteer,
and he (no doubt smiling) accepted.  I have various methods I use to try
to 'get' this information; I am still working on the methods that work best
for me.  This time, I chose automatic typing.  I typed in 'what is bills
physical description' several times very quickly, with numerous typos.
Then, letting my mind wander, and just let my fingers type in the rest.
What came out was surprising:  'grey hair and brown eyes and a wierd
distinctive lean-to at the tip of his nose'.  After letting my brain come
back on-line, I immediately said 'Wow, that was sure wierd.'
Bill did not respond immediately.  I asked a fellow psychic (someone a bit
more advanced than I am) a quick question:  What are you picking up from
Bill?  She responded: 'I'm picking up a lot of disbelief and that we're
a lot of wackos and kooks.'.  It took several minutes before Bill
responded.  He typed in, 'Grey eyes, brown hair, and a distinctive lean
at the end of my nose'.  I was excited by this early success, of course;
I got the colors reversed, but I exactly described a very anomalous
feature that he had.  And, since IRC is a meeting place for 1000-1400
people from all over the planet, it was extremely unlikely that I could
have had any experience withthis person before.

Now, theoretically it's possible that the 15+ people I've done this on
(with various success rates, as I've said before) were all leading me on,
saying I got it right when I was actually wrong.  So, I have to admit, I
am depending on people's honesty here.  However, I asked others to ascertain
MY description.  Case in point, I asked a person I'll call 'AW' what I was
wearing and my hair color.  He might have known my hair color from some
previous exchange, but it is doubtful he could know what I was wearing
(a big sweatshirt) based on that information.  He said, 'brown hair, and
sweats.'  Both were right.  From that test, I can say that this stuff
actually happens.  Furthermore, that I am actually doing it and that since
MOST people are generally honest (even over a relatively anonymous service
like IRC), the results are real.

OK, another example.  The other tuesday there's this Wicca-related class
called Wicca101 on IRC.  Of course, me and my friends attended, but apparently
none of the teachers (those IRC participants that have been deemed as having
valuable skills/talents/knowledge).  The topic that night was Tarot, but
the teacher was history.  So, to pass the time, I brought up the idea that
we should play some number-guessing games.  As in, I would try to project
a number, and everyone else would try to pick it up, send it out, and
see if they were right.  I decided to be the first one to 'project'.
The first number was a 7.  I began a 3-2-1 countdown as to when everyone
should start trying to 'receive' my number.  I decided on 7, and actually
started projecting on the count of 2.  Within seconds, four people had
responded, and two were correct.  One of my friends there even said that
she picked it up very loud and clearly, beginning on the count of 2 instead
of 1.  This was accurate.  Later on, other people took turns, and I
said let me try projecting a letter/color combination instead.  After all,
it would be less subject to 'chance'.  The color would be based on the
letter; the first letter of the name of the color would be the letter
projected.  Well, I decided upon 'G' for Grey.  I stated that it was really
a test of the letter, and not the color; good thing too, because while
all the participants got the letter, none of them got 'Grey'.  Everyone
got 'Green' instead.  I believe all 5 of the participants got the letter
correct, but none received the grey part.  I must hasten to say that others
MAY have been just following the lead of the first person; although I
sincerely doubt it, I must grant that as a possible source of error.  At
no time did I give any indication as to what I was projecting before all
answers were in, however.

Another example.  I was MOOing around one fine night, very late at night.
I encountered a person, and we started chatting, and this person was
interested in the phenomena of psychic powers.  He related to me some
wierd experiences of his, that made him a bit frightened at the time.
He presented a test to me:  One of us would project a # from 1 to 3;
the test would be repeated three times.  We repeated the test twice, switching
off between the positions of 'reciever' and 'projector'.  Now, he COULD
have possibly been leading me on when I was the receiver saying numbers;
but, when it was my turn and he gave me the exact numbers that I was
projecting, then one can only assume two things.  A) he was getting these
numbers through resources that psychics believe in, or B) he got a one in
27 chance of striking the correct combination.  Now, we both got each others
three numbers correct.  IF you grant that neither of us was leading the other
on, than we can say either both of us were using paranormal abilities, or
we managed to get lucky.  The second possibility was a 1 in 729 chance;
the first possibility seemed quite a bit more probable, IMHO.

Now, I have just one more thing to pass on to you for your mental
digestion.  I mentioned my 'darkvision' before, but let me explain that
a bit better.  Last year, I started my practice as a Buddhist practitioner.
Sometimes, I had great success at the meditations, and afterward I would
feel exceedingly calm and 'energized'.  Sometimes in this state I would
close my eyes tightly and turn off the lights, and observe my surroundings.
Most of the time, I could see the border between my door and my wall of my
room, the color of the walls, very simple shapes and patterns.  Other times,
after a _very_ good meditation, this ability would be much much clearer.
I would be able to make out the color of my shoes, all the things in my
room, everything.  Basically, it was a type of shadowy vision that varied
in strength, but had nothing to do with my natural physical vision (that I
am aware of).  Today, I keep habits so that every day I stay up to 3 AM,
and go straight from an environment of bright flourescent lights to
pitch darkness.  In such cases, I close my eyes and 'see' the obstacles
surrounding me so that I can make my way to my bed and flop down, without
kicking my belongings or stubbing my toe on the furniture.  I grant, blind
people can do this too, but most rather dislike it when you change the
furniture around on them.  I do not base the images that I see beyond my
eyelids on memory, however; I have gone to places I've never been to before
and it worked just fine under those conditions.

There you have it.  I of course claim that everything here is as close
to the truth as I know it to be.  These are _some_ of the experiences
I have gone through that convinced me of the reality of psychic phenomena.

I doubt if it will change any of the minds out there that are set against
the idea of psychic phenomena, but if you have gone through the experiences
I have, I think you would have to be hard put to deny them or rationalize
them into something else.

No flames, please.   :)  You too, Carl!   hahahaha...

                    - Richard Temps

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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 22:45:02 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Carl Sagen....the truth!!!!
Lines: 91

Hey all,
I just finished a book called "the gods of eden" by william Bramley..and just
near the end there was an interesting thing or two about our fav. alien
basher, Carl Sagan. (sorry for the spelling in the subject :()
Anyway....read this..then I'll add my comments at the end

what follows is pure violation of the copywrite laws....but PPPPLLLLeeeaaassee
don't sue me...cuase i'm a student and I don't have anything anyway...Plus it
may be a good plug for your book....matter of fact...how about sending me
money as a promoter!!! :)
  Today, the U.S. government is publicly out of the UFO business. Most of the
debunking torch has been passed to a private group called the Committe for the
Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal ("CSICOP").  CSICOP
boasts an impressive roaster of scientific and technical consultants, many
of whom hold professorships at prestigious universities.  CSICOP has inspired
the creation of local branches usually know as "skeptical societies."
CSICOP publishes a quarterly journal called   The skeptical Inquirer.
   A basic premise upon which SCICOP operates is that UFOs are not proven to be
extraterrestrial craft.  CSICOP also debunks all other phenomena that it
considers phone or "pseudoscientific" such as clairvoyance, spiritualism,
Bigfoot, the Abonminable Snowman, the Loch Ness monster, ans all spiritual
phenomena.  It brands any effort to seriously study UFOs or spiritual
phenonmena as "pseudoscience" - a term it bandies about freely. CSICOP
naturally practices only "real" science. Many CSICOP and local skeptic
members are quite energetic and some of them appear regularly on radio and
television shows.
    The influence of CSICOP today is quite strong.  In addition to its
presence in universities throught CSICOP affiliated faculty, CSICOP has exerted
influence in the media.  Celebrity astronomer Carl Sagan, for example, is
listed as a Fellow of CSICOP.  ***Stuff Deleted***

CSISOP has gained a following primarily because the organization successfully
promotes an image of objectivity.  In CSICOP's statemt of purpose, for
example, we read the following words:
   The CSISOP attempts to encourage the critical investigation of paranormal
   and fring-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view
   and to disseminate factual information about the results of such inquiries
   to the scientific community and the public.
   . . .
   The committee is a nonprofit scientfic and educational organization

   The committee sounds like a wonderful organization.  Thw world can
greatly benefit from objective research into UFOs and paranormal claims.  It is
especially important for serious researchers to sort out the legitimate from
the fraud, and that is not always easy to do.  Sadly, CSICOP does not provide
the objectivity needed to accomplish that task.  The result of a CSICOP
investigation has always been, to my knowlege, an utter debunking.  This has
puzzled those people who cannot understand how some evidence can possibly
be rejected if it is looked at objectively.  The solution to this puzzle
comes by discovering who started CSISOP and why.

****Stuff Deleted...buy I'll give 'ya the just of it.....***
founded in 1976 as a humanism group. Humanism is a school of thought
opposed to religion interests and values.  They reject that the soul
is separable from the body and we are just a  biological animal in a social
context.
**** Back to the text *******

   Such ideas are find for those pople who choose to believe them.  The point
I am making is this: individuals and organizations which actively
promote such ideas will find it difficult to be genuinely objective when they
investigate evidence which flatly contradicts their established view.  They
have already declared what they believe and what the reject.
   Ovjectivity is even more diddicult when those same people actively seek
to spread their way of thinking as a social goal.  Accordking to the
Humanis Manifest II:

      We affirm a set of common principles that can serve as a basis for
      unites action - positive principles relevant to the present human
      condition.  They are a design for a secular society on a
      planetary scale.

We see in this quote that there exists a united intention amoung many secular
humanists to create a worldwide secular society.


****  END TEXT...FROM  'The Gods of Eden' by William Bramley *****

Now..it seems to me that the artical may have been nothing more than an
attempt to help create this goal of ' a secular society on a planatary
scale' HHHMMMMMM????
   But since he is well know...people will take what he says to heart. (even
though they won't take 30 sec. to think about what he said)
Also...isn't it strange that a group that preaches AGAINST religions wants
to spread it's message world wide???  doesn't that make it LIKE a religion.
something like an anit religious religion ??? :)...ah well...So..what do you
folks think?????  I think this puts Mr. Sagan's article in a slightly
different light...don't you???  Let me hear what you think.

Peace and little green dudes,
                           Mike C.
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 23:05:57 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Carl Sagan...the truth!!!!
Lines: 98

Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 22:45:02 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:    Carl Sagen....the truth!!!!

Hey all,
I just finished a book called "the gods of eden" by william Bramley..and just
near the end there was an interesting thing or two about our fav. alien
basher, Carl Sagan. (sorry for the spelling in the subject :()
Anyway....read this..then I'll add my comments at the end

what follows is pure violation of the copywrite laws....but PPPPLLLLeeeaaassee
don't sue me...cuase i'm a student and I don't have anything anyway...Plus it
may be a good plug for your book....matter of fact...how about sending me
money as a promoter!!! :)
  Today, the U.S. government is publicly out of the UFO business. Most of the
debunking torch has been passed to a private group called the Committe for the
Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal ("CSICOP").  CSICOP
boasts an impressive roaster of scientific and technical consultants, many
of whom hold professorships at prestigious universities.  CSICOP has inspired
the creation of local branches usually know as "skeptical societies."
CSICOP publishes a quarterly journal called   The skeptical Inquirer.
   A basic premise upon which SCICOP operates is that UFOs are not proven to be
extraterrestrial craft.  CSICOP also debunks all other phenomena that it
considers phone or "pseudoscientific" such as clairvoyance, spiritualism,
Bigfoot, the Abonminable Snowman, the Loch Ness monster, ans all spiritual
phenomena.  It brands any effort to seriously study UFOs or spiritual
phenonmena as "pseudoscience" - a term it bandies about freely. CSICOP
naturally practices only "real" science. Many CSICOP and local skeptic
members are quite energetic and some of them appear regularly on radio and
television shows.
    The influence of CSICOP today is quite strong.  In addition to its
presence in universities throught CSICOP affiliated faculty, CSICOP has exerted
influence in the media.  Celebrity astronomer Carl Sagan, for example, is
listed as a Fellow of CSICOP.  ***Stuff Deleted***

CSISOP has gained a following primarily because the organization successfully
promotes an image of objectivity.  In CSICOP's statemt of purpose, for
example, we read the following words:
   The CSISOP attempts to encourage the critical investigation of paranormal
   and fring-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view
   and to disseminate factual information about the results of such inquiries
   to the scientific community and the public.
   . . .
   The committee is a nonprofit scientfic and educational organization

   The committee sounds like a wonderful organization.  Thw world can
greatly benefit from objective research into UFOs and paranormal claims.  It is
especially important for serious researchers to sort out the legitimate from
the fraud, and that is not always easy to do.  Sadly, CSICOP does not provide
the objectivity needed to accomplish that task.  The result of a CSICOP
investigation has always been, to my knowlege, an utter debunking.  This has
puzzled those people who cannot understand how some evidence can possibly
be rejected if it is looked at objectively.  The solution to this puzzle
comes by discovering who started CSISOP and why.

****Stuff Deleted...buy I'll give 'ya the just of it.....***
founded in 1976 as a humanism group. Humanism is a school of thought
opposed to religion interests and values.  They reject that the soul
is separable from the body and we are just a  biological animal in a social
context.
**** Back to the text *******

   Such ideas are find for those pople who choose to believe them.  The point
I am making is this: individuals and organizations which actively
promote such ideas will find it difficult to be genuinely objective when they
investigate evidence which flatly contradicts their established view.  They
have already declared what they believe and what the reject.
   Ovjectivity is even more diddicult when those same people actively seek
to spread their way of thinking as a social goal.  According to the
Humanis Manifest II:

      We affirm a set of common principles that can serve as a basis for
      unites action - positive principles relevant to the present human
      condition.  They are a design for a secular society on a
      planetary scale.

We see in this quote that there exists a united intention amoung many secular
humanists to create a worldwide secular society.


****  END TEXT...FROM  'The Gods of Eden' by William Bramley *****

Now..it seems to me that the artical may have been nothing more than an
attempt to help create this goal of ' a secular society on a planatary
scale' HHHMMMMMM????
   But since he is well know...people will take what he says to heart. (even
though they won't take 30 sec. to think about what he said)
Also...isn't it strange that a group that preaches AGAINST religions wants
to spread it's message world wide???  doesn't that make it LIKE a religion.
something like an anti-religious religion ??? :)...ah well...So..what do you
folks think?????  I think this puts Mr. Sagan's article in a slightly
different light...don't you???  Let me hear what you think.

Peace and little green dudes,
                           Mike C.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 26 Mar 93 01:12:28 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <1oqnvu$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1ottcg$[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <1ottcg$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
    [deleted]
> ...no prompting or 'warm/cold/higher/lower' from him.  At another time I
> got absolutely nothing on a person; all of my answers were totally wrong.
> I average around 50% however.  This means, half of the information I
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> get correct, and half of it wrong...
    [deleted]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's see if I have this straight: you guess correctly 50% of the time and
conclude that you are "psychic." Is that right?

-Craig Haggart
 Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
 Menlo Park, California

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Stephanie Linton u)
Subject: Newcomer...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 08:23:18 GMT
Lines: 7


Hi there, I am a new subscriber here - and I was wondering if anyone has had
an outerspace experience, or has seen a U.F.O.???

Steph
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Stephanie Linton u)
Subject: Streetlamps..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 08:36:37 GMT
Lines: 11

There was some conversation in the alt.paranormal about streetlamps burning
out.. this happens to me as I just about reach streetlamps... they go out..
it has happened for a few years now... and it happens every day (not in the
same spot - in different spots and different cities) but i can be assured
that whenever i go out at night one will burn out before i come to it..

Did someone say that meant something?

steph
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Jacqueline Cote)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Santa challange [Was: Cause of UFO reports?]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Mar 93 09:22:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Stichting Academisch Rekencentum Amsterdam
Lines: 40
Nntp-Posting-Host: vm1.sara.nl

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Jan Willem Nienhuys) writes:

>Now Sinterklaas clearly exists (15 million Dutchmen can't be wrong,
>can they?).  So any iconographic representation in which he
>(1) doesn't occur around December 5 (2) doesn't have a white horse
>(3) doesn't have black or moorish assistants (4) doesn't have a bishop's
>gown, surplice, mitre, and bishop's staff (5) doesn't distribute
>chocolate initials as presents (6) doesn't arrive each
>year from Spain by steamboat to be received by city mayors  ---
>clearly is a misrepresentation, an abomination and cannot be said
>to represent an existing Saint.
>
>      There is only one Sinterklaas.  Stamp out all imitations!
>
>
>JWN (for SF, the Sinterklasist Fundamentalists).

Jan Willem, shame on you! You forgot to mention that the good old man,
a well now figure from history, was the bishop of Myra and is still
patron saint of children and sailors. So there!

Sinterklaas kapoentje, gooi wat in mijn schoentje, gooi wat in mijn
laarsje, dank u sinterklaaaasje.

And that old time favourite of 15 million Dutch:

Zie ginds komt de stoomboot uit Spanje weer aan.....

(See yonder the steamboat from Spain coming.....)

:-)

Jacqueline

________________________________________________________________________________
Jacqueline Cote'     | Astronomical Inst., Un. of Amsterdam, The Netherlands
                     | and: SRON Space Research, Groningen, The Netherlands
[e-mail]    | phone: [phone]  [phone] (home)
[e-mail] | FAX: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 10:04:25 GMT
Lines: 16


Someone says

     The same bullshit promulgated by new-agers has been claimed for
    thousands of years, without demonstrable success.
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is it *all* BS? Have you checked it *all* out? Please let me know, as I was
convinced by one or two amazing things from Findhorn and from A Course In
Miracles, and if you definitely know this, then it must have been some clever
trick, and I'll have to change my mind. Oh dear, and it was so beautiful..

                                                        Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
(Switzerland)
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Answer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 09:30:55 GMT
Lines: 48



Robert and J (Lorinda) say:

    >Just to affirm that I also understand it as a planet that
    >failed to form due to the high gravity of Jupiter

      >and all that, told me no, there was never a planet there, nor could
    >there be with Jupiter where it is

    >actually I don't have a lot of faith that anybody knows enough about the
    >total quantity and make-up of the asteroids in the asteroid belt

    >but that's what I've been told.

I like your caution here. "I've been told" or "I also understand" seem to be
the best ways of regarding such "facts" in my opinion.

I've seen close-ups of one or two of the asteroids, and have heard experts
say that the large craters on them could only have been caused if these
chunks had originally been part of a much larger body. ("Asteris"? :-)

Until *all* the people who claim to "know" the answer (scientists from the
relevant disciplines) say the *same* thing, then it will be, as with UFOs,
just a matter of *belief* rather than proof. As with UFOs, a matter for
discussion, yes, but expecting to be able to "prove" a point to others...

Some of the bizarre, "impossible" things that seem to be happening in the
world recently, not (as it appears) directly connected with ETs, make me
realise that there's a tremendous amount that we don't know, just refuse to
accept, or are at the moment *incapable* of accepting. It's made me tend to
remember and pay more attention to "little" things that we would otherwise
tend to forget straight away, like my wife's twice seeing an "apparition" in
our house. Thanks to "alien Harvest" and "the Watchers" and other books, it
doesn't scare me any more! (It also helps me to accept the "incredible"
things my mother used to say she saw!)

Anyway, I don't condemn you if you regard me as a raving loony. But you
should then maybe have an honest look at yourself. I used to refute things
because I was arrogant, and because sometimes the ideas scared me. I just
didn't realise at the time! (Even now I don't always :-)

                                                            Paul.


Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
(Switzerland)
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 06:58:02 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Me... on the radio???
Lines: 23

OPTIONS: NOACK    LOG    SHORT     NOTEBOOK ALL




Date:    26 March 1993, 06:51:58 EST
From:    JLS19    at PSUVM
Subject: Me on the radio?
To:      UFO-L

As co-founder of the Penn State UFO Discussion Group and also as a result of
an interview being printed in the Thurs.  March 18th edition of "The
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette", Beth Combs and I have been asked to appear on
several radio talk shows.  We were on KDKA last Thurs.  and Friday for a
short while. Tina Fedko of WTAE radio, 1250 AM in Pittsburgh has
invited us to be on her talk show from 2-3:00 pm this Sunday, the 28th.
Beth and I are by no means experts on the subject of UFOs and some of the
questions may get difficult.  So, please, all those in the Pittsburgh,
Tri-State area who can help us, call in and contribute to the conversation!
Sorry, I don't have the phone number.  Beth and I are three hours down the
road and will be on via a conference call.

Janet L.  Smith
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From: [e-mail] (Adrian Forte)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Streetlamps..
Date: 26 Mar 1993 08:39:49 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <1ov4jl$[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

[e-mail] (Stephanie Linton u) writes:

>There was some conversation in the alt.paranormal about streetlamps burning
>out.. this happens to me as I just about reach streetlamps... they go out..
>it has happened for a few years now... and it happens every day (not in the
>same spot - in different spots and different cities) but i can be assured
>that whenever i go out at night one will burn out before i come to it..

>Did someone say that meant something?

>steph
>[e-mail]

I used to think it was my car doing it to a particular set of streetlamps,
though I never did figure out a plausable reason as to why.  Then it
started in the same place with a different car...

When the same person is blacking out the same streetlights, there's
something going on, I just whish there were a decent explanation.
Especially in instances that duplicate themselves too frequently to be chance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Greetings and salivations fellow aviators!
  It is I, that panic provoking pirate, Don Karnage!!!!

       Don Karnage, "Plunder & Lightining Part 1"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
References: <[e-mail]> <1oqnvu$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1ottcg$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 14:52:16 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> In article <1ottcg$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
|>     [deleted]
|> > ...no prompting or 'warm/cold/higher/lower' from him.  At another time I
|> > got absolutely nothing on a person; all of my answers were totally wrong.
|> > I average around 50% however.  This means, half of the information I
|>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > get correct, and half of it wrong...
|>     [deleted]
|> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|>
|> Let's see if I have this straight: you guess correctly 50% of the time and
|> conclude that you are "psychic." Is that right?

Unless all his guesses are on binary questions, that's actually more than one
might expect. So his guesses probably are binary... :-)

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]                 - Marvin

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From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Re: Newcomer...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 14:56:24 GMT
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Stephanie Linton u) writes:
|> Hi there, I am a new subscriber here - and I was wondering if anyone has had
|> an outerspace experience, or has seen a U.F.O.???

Steph, just about everybody here (not me - sigh..) seems to be having those kind
of experiences all the time. I guess that makes two of us that never has any luck,
right?

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]                 - Marvin

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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Time Travel.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 06:23:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

Subject: Time Travel.
  If I may be so bold, I would like to, at this time, tell you a little bit
about Time Travel. Here is how the   information goes;... Amazing psychic
Janet Hattaway astounded a skeptical scientist by proving she can mentally
travel back in time - and return with facts about long-dead civilizations!
  "The implications are staggering," said German anthropologist and
archaeologist Dr. E. Wilhelm Escher, who originally scoffed at Mrs.
Hattaway's claims that she could transport herself into the past.
  At a demonstration sponsored by Weeklly World Nesws, the scientist's
skepticism was shattered when Mrs. Hattaway proved she would journery back
in time by concentrating on ancient artifacts - artifacts only Dr. Escher
knew the origin of.  "This is very important," Dr. Escher said after the
four-hour session.
  "If I hadn't seen it for myself, I would never have believed it possible.
What a great contribution she can make in the field of history."

  Dr. Escher, 65, has traveled extensively in the Middle East and South
America searching for clues to man's early existence.  He is best know for
his participation in the 1960 archaeological discovery of Masada, the
2,000-year - old fortress-palace of King Herod near Bethlehem.
  After Dr. Escher gave Mrs. Hattaway a jar of soil taken from the Masada
site, the psychic described in great detail "a mass grave of 960 men, women
and children, and  a  place where scrolls are buried."
  Dr. Escher called her description amazing.  "The Masada site was the burial
ground of 960 Jews who committed mass suicide in 73 A.D. rather than face
total slaughter by conquering Roman legions," he said. "Scrolls written in
the 2nd century B.C. were unearthed later."
  Mrs. Hattaway's accouracy in the next experiment was "mind-boggling," the
scientist said. Handed an ancient bone fragment from a manatee, or sea cow,
the psychic said, "I pick up vibrations of an ocean, a water animal - this
is amanatee bone!"
  Several Mayan stone fragments were handed to Mrs. Hattaway.  "I feel a hole
in my ear, something being done to my ear," she said.  "I see long, long
boats for long-distance travel. I see a symbolic bird and fish."
  "This is astonishing," Dr. Escher said. "She couldn't possibly have known
the stones are from a Mayan dig. She picked up on their seagoiing canoes,
their tradition of ear piercing - and the fish-bird artifact she mentioned
is a image of their god Kukukan!"
  Later, the once-scoffing scientist said he's absolutely convinced Mrs.
Hattaway has the eerie ability to transport herself through time.
  "It defies scientific explanation," Dr. Escher said.  "But there is no boubt
is my mind that his woman can do it."
(JW I have a friend who can do this sort of thing.)
Source of Material: Weekly World News March 30. 1993. page 35.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Swami Johnny.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 06:31:07 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People Who Don't Use Spray Deoderant And Those Who Wished They Did:
I just came across some information about a Swami who is swimming,
pardon me, making his way around the USA. I'll try to post something
about his work later.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Comment.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 06:36:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Thinkers: It is good to see that the illusterous Mr. Paul M. has
joined our discussion.  May we attain the truth no matter who is right.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth)
Subject: Re: Aerospace UL
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: lonestar.utsa.edu
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
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Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 16:39:22 GMT
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (I am an android..) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth) writes:
>]ObUl- It was revealed recently that Dr. Werner von Braun had actually
>]worked on a manned space shuttle program for Nazi Germany, but the
>]prototpye was lost on re-entry during it's super-secret test flight.
>]Apparently, the pilot blacked out, causing the shuttle to crash. It was
>]learned later that this was due to the severe g's encountered during the
>]high speed lightning-bolt S turns, which were performed to slow the shuttle
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>]during its landing approach.
>
>Uh.. yeah. Okaaaaaay.

Sorry about that, I was trying to make a joke, but it seems to have backfired
(with smileys prohibited, that can happen).  Note the underlined part.
A play on the 'S-turns' the shuttle does to slow its descent.



>
>]ObUl-(unrelated) The US Air Force has deliberately spread the rumors
>]about UFO's and Hangar 18 in order to cover-up testing of ultra-secret
>]planes (i.e., letting people think they were seeing captured UFO tests
>]in Nevada when in reality they were seeing flight tests of stealth
>]aircraft)
>
>This almost makes sense.

I heard this one on TV (so it must be true!) on one of the daytime
talk shows a few years ago.

Basically, a guy from a UFO group was talking about his group's theory
that the some (if not all) of the UFO-hype was planned from the
beginning by the Air Force, like allow BS info about captured aliens
and spaceraft being kept in Nevada and things like that.

Apparently the UFO-folks ate it up without question.

(this ought to go to alt.alien.visitors)

Simon
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From: [e-mail] (Roger Biddle)
Subject: Alternative Three
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 16:37:46 GMT
Lines: 16


So,

    I've heard about alternative three.  If you know what
I'm talking about, then 'nuff said.

    So, what your view on this?  Seems like a pretty
fair reason to be nervous to be a human if I live under
the rules that govern how this information is processed.

RB (Canada)
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From: [e-mail] (schauer daniel lyle)
Subject: Re: Time Travel.
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 17:31:44 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 38

[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Time Travel.

>  Dr. Escher, 65, has traveled extensively in the Middle East and South
>America searching for clues to man's early existence.  He is best know for
>his participation in the 1960 archaeological discovery of Masada, the
>2,000-year - old fortress-palace of King Herod near Bethlehem.
>  After Dr. Escher gave Mrs. Hattaway a jar of soil taken from the Masada
>site, the psychic described in great detail "a mass grave of 960 men, women
>and children, and  a  place where scrolls are buried."

Gee, that's a wild guess.  What else is an archaeologist going to give her.
Where is this man's scientific acumen?  If I were he I would give the woman a
pot of soil out of my back yard.  Then see what she says.

>  Dr. Escher called her description amazing.  "The Masada site was the burial
>ground of 960 Jews who committed mass suicide in 73 A.D. rather than face
>total slaughter by conquering Roman legions," he said. "Scrolls written in
>the 2nd century B.C. were unearthed later."

Scrolls found in an archaelogical dig.  AMAZING!!!!!

>  Several Mayan stone fragments were handed to Mrs. Hattaway.  "I feel a hole
>in my ear, something being done to my ear," she said.  "I see long, long
>boats for long-distance travel. I see a symbolic bird and fish."
>  "This is astonishing," Dr. Escher said. "She couldn't possibly have known
>the stones are from a Mayan dig. She picked up on their seagoiing canoes,
>their tradition of ear piercing - and the fish-bird artifact she mentioned
>is a image of their god Kukukan!"

Like there are no other sea-based cultures on this planet.

>Source of Material: Weekly World News March 30. 1993. page 35.

People actually believe this rag???  You aren't serious, right???

Dan Schauer
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:41404 alt.alien.visitors:14916 talk.religion.newage:14567
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From: [e-mail] (chris Loeckel)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Life on Venus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Mar 93 17:46:46 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 40

Here is an article, posted without permission, which appeared on the
front page of the _USA Today_ on Thursday, 3/25/93. Thought some folks
might be interested in it:

----------------

         VENUS MAY HAVE HAD LIFE BILLIONS OF YEARS AGO

By Paul Hoversten
USA TODAY

    Venus -- Earth's "twin" -- may have harbored life in oceans up
to 75 feet deep that once covered its surface, a NASA spacecraft has
found.
    "Venus was once a pretty wet planet," says Thomas Donahue, a
project scientist for Pioneer Venus from the University of Michigan.
"If there was [sic] liquid water and it lasted as long as a billion
years, then it's possible life could have evolved.
    Pioneer Venus, launched in 1978, explored the planet from
orbit and sent probes into Venus' atmosphere until last October, when
it was sent into the ionized clouds for a final look before
incineration. The mission cost $200 million.
    Venus is called Earth's twin because it's closest and similar
in size, age, composition.
    But Venus suffered what scientists call a "runaway greenhouse
effect" that left it bone dry, with 900-degree temperatures, and
shrouded in clouds of sulfuric acid.
    The spacecraft measured the presence of 3 1/2 times more water
than was thought.
    Scientists calculate Venus was covered in water 25-75 feet
deep billions of years ago when the sun was only 70% as bright. Then,
Venus' surface temperatures would have been a balmy 70-80 degrees.

-----------

(CL so there u have it. fascinating, eh?)
....this is scary; i think i am starting to become like Bibo! well, at
least my source is a little more reputable. :)

Chris Loeckel
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14917 alt.paranormal:6769 sci.skeptic:41405
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From: [e-mail] (Stuart Grant)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
References: <1oqnvu$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1ottcg$[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 17:17:05 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <1ottcg$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (case s) writes:

[A number of personal anecdotes, purported to be examples of psychic ability]

O.K. ! Now we have something to build on.  You have given some personal
anecdotes of experiences that that have led you to believe you have
psychic powers.  Obviously, most people in this group will poo-poo these
anecdotes (with good reason, IMHO). How about a real test?  Would
you be willing to perform a couple of tests?

If you are willing to take part in a public test of your claimed psychic
powers, tell us the sort of things you can do, and all of us can
try to design a test that can be performed right here on the net.

For example, can you predict the future? (On any or all things)
Are you able to communicate with the dead?
Can you read the minds of people far away?

Some potential psychic abilities are easier to test than others, so
it you agree to the test, give us an exhaustive list of te abilites you
calim to have.


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: William Bramley's lousy logic (was: Carl Sagan...the truth!!!!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 15:19:27 GMT
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:
[quoting "The Gods Of Eden" by William Bramley]
>Sadly, CSICOP does not provide
>the objectivity needed to accomplish that task.  The result of a CSICOP
>investigation has always been, to my knowlege, an utter debunking.  This has
>puzzled those people who cannot understand how some evidence can possibly
>be rejected if it is looked at objectively.  The solution to this puzzle
>comes by discovering who started CSISOP and why.

So Bramley's objection to CSICOP is that their investigations don't yield the
results he wants?  From the fact that he knows for sure what they should find,
it follows that they must be wrong and therefore subjective.

In other words, there are two parties who come to different conclusions, and
Brawley concludes that group A must be wrong, as he himself is part of group B.

See the hole in his logic?

If he would point to real facts (where CSICOP really did things that show them
to be subjective) instead of generally waving his arms, he would have a case,
but this content-free attack at his opponents is an ad-hominem argument and
therefore worthless.  To the contrary, it unveils *Bramley* as the one who
uses his opinion as a basis for everything and never considers the possibility
that he might be wrong.  When "[t]he result of a CSICOP investigation has
always been, to [Brawley's] knowlege, an utter debunking" he doesn't even
think of accepting that there may be no ETs (or fairies, or whatever) among the
cases CSICOP investigated (at least he shows no signs of thinking of it), but
instead tries to find dirt in CSICOP's past.

>****Stuff Deleted...buy I'll give 'ya the just of it.....***
>founded in 1976 as a humanism group. Humanism is a school of thought
>opposed to religion interests and values.  They reject that the soul
>is separable from the body and we are just a  biological animal in a social
>context.
>**** Back to the text *******
>
>   Such ideas are find for those pople who choose to believe them. [..]

They are opposed to religions because religions are not objective.  That makes
themselves subjective?
You're intolerant if you don't like intolerance?
You're closed-minded if you don't appreciate closed-minded people?

(For the simile impaired:  No, I don't want to say that religions are intolerant
and closed-minded.  I want to say that religions are subjective and that if you
accept subjective interpretations, you are subjective yourself, therefore one
can't logically hold CSICOP's disapproval of religions against them *as a sign
of subjectivity*.)

The above is my opinion.  *I* know the difference between an opinion and "the
truth with four exclamation marks", that's why I changed the subject line.

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
Johannes Scotus Eriugena, the greatest European philosopher of the 9th century,
said that if reason and authority conflict, reason should be given preference.
And if that doesn't sound reasonable to you, you'll just have to accept it...
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14568 alt.alien.visitors:14919 alt.religion.kibology:7728
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: Should Kibo grow up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 19:01:30 GMT
Lines: 7


I was absorbing a.r.k earlier today and my wife said 'what's kibology?' and
I told her and she said 'who's Kibo?' and I didn't tell her and then she
bit me and I told her and then she said 'well, he should grow up!'.  What
do you all think?
--
Jason Balicki | [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14569 alt.alien.visitors:14920 alt.religion.kibology:7730
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Should Kibo grow up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Chicago
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 19:43:59 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
>
>I was absorbing a.r.k earlier today and my wife said 'what's kibology?' and
>I told her and she said 'who's Kibo?' and I didn't tell her and then she
>bit me and I told her and then she said 'well, he should grow up!'.  What
>do you all think?

She should anoint Kibo's head (see Psalm 45).  All male Kibologists but Kibo
should remain celibate.
--
ted frank               | "Oh the veins of her Majesty the queen
[e-mail] |  They're so regal and serene."
the u of c law school   |
standard disclaimers    |                           -- Robyn Hitchcock
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14570 alt.alien.visitors:14921
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From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Time Travel.
Date: 26 Mar 1993 19:57:47 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 6
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

(More remote seeing claims)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>(JW I have a friend who can do this sort of thing.)

No you don't, because they still haven't located my wallet.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14922 alt.paranormal:6771 sci.skeptic:41416
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet news system)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
References: <1ottcg$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 19:42:43 GMT
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund) writes:
>|> Let's see if I have this straight: you guess correctly 50% of the time and
>|> conclude that you are "psychic." Is that right?
>Unless all his guesses are on binary questions, that's actually more than one
>might expect. So his guesses probably are binary... :-)

Not necessarily.

If 75% of people have brown eyes, for instance, ypou can guess right 75% of the
time without being psychic, just by guessing "brown" every time.  If you
guess a mixture of colors, but including a lot of browns, you will still be
right more than 75% of the time, plus you get to have the occasional correct
guess of blue or green eyes to break the monotony.

Having anon-binary question with, say, 4 equally likely possibilities lowers
the score below 50%, but traits like the brown eye one raise it again.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee ([e-mail])
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From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: William Bramley's lousy logic (was: Carl Sagan...the truth!!!!)
Date: 26 Mar 1993 20:08:39 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
>So Bramley's objection to CSICOP is that their investigations don't yield the
>results he wants?...

His objection to PSICOP is that they are not an impartial judge, which, of
course, is very true.

>See the hole in his logic?

I see the hole in yours (purposely fabricating false interpretations of what
someone else said -- i.e. lying).

Oops.  I meant CSICOP.  Such an ironic name...
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14571 alt.alien.visitors:14924 alt.religion.kibology:7733
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From: [e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz)
Subject: Re: Should Kibo grow up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Citicorp TTI
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 20:55:10 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
>
>I was absorbing a.r.k earlier today and my wife said 'what's kibology?' and
>I told her and she said 'who's Kibo?' and I didn't tell her and then she
>bit me and I told her and then she said 'well, he should grow up!'.  What
>do you all think?
>--
>Jason Balicki | [e-mail]

 Isn't that a little like asking fish to live out of water?  I'd vote 'YES`
but what's the point? Parry's got 4 or 5 'alt.xxx.kibo' newsgroups already
and he still spews that stuff everywhere he goes; the rec.*, sci.*, etc...
..I don't think it's funny but *somebody* seems to think it is!  Your wife
is a wise person.


-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
TTI([e-mail])[e-mail] *   Think Eco, not EGO!   *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
(OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS MANAGEMENT!)
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Only questions, no answers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Mar 93 14:26:50 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University
Lines: 72

     This posting is not an effort to disprove alien abductions or other claims
of alien encounters.  I firmly believe that something must be going on in order
for so many numerous incidents to be reported.  Here's some thoughts on the
matter that have been bugging me.

     An alien biology would almost certainly be extremely different from our
own.  The odds of duplicating the necessary steps of evolution from primordial
soup to human beings by random chance is infintessimal.  None-the-less, the
aliens sighted appear humanoid.  They have two arms, two legs, and a definite
head with two eyes.  In fact, they resemble what some science fiction authors
have guessed humans would become over millions of years of evolution--expanded
head and fragile body.  Furthermore, there are numerous reports of
hybridizations.  Humans cannot cross breed with cats or dogs, which are members
of the same biological class and kingdom.  We cannot mate with plants, but they
too have the distinction of being from the same ecosystem.  But, the alien
beings and humans have reportedly been mated and have produced viable
offspring.  How can this be?  The idea that humans were a planted species,
imported from another world, is illogical; we fit too nicely into the existing
system.  We are made of proteins and carboydrates described by DNA, and we even
have some close relatives--the primates.  (There is a group, called the SBA,
the Student Baptist Association, that wants to argue that point, but evolution
is basically undeniable.  Most Christian religions recognize the archaeological
evidence.)

     The first guess would be that despite the odds, parallel evolution has
occured.  There could be several or a multitude of "Class M planets" with
populations that look just like those of Earth, except for some subtle
differences.  The _Star Trek_ approach might be used as an arguement to say
that there is a God, if it were proven to be true.

     The next guess would be that the aliens are not from another planet, but
are instead from another time.  This would require time travel to be possible,
but time travel is only one more step from passing through matter or the other
phenomenal abilities the aliens seem to have.  This would also require that
mankind have survived our various problems (last decade it was nuclear arms,
this time its the environment) and found a way to restore evolution.  As it is,
there is no evolution because there is no force that selects the biologically
advantaged for survival.  As is, we have the unfortunate situation of survival
of the richest, but of course the idea of any selective survival technique is
unpleasant.  Perhaps one can use the reports to back this hypothesis.  The
aliens are themselves making mankind survive so they can exist, by selecting
those who have whatever traits are necessary to bridge the gap between human
and grey, and creating hybrids.
     This guess is one I rather like, but it has one flaw I have yet to
justify.  If the above were true, then by similar logic couldn't I invent a
time machine and go back in time to show myself how to invent it?  (This would
be a great money-making scheme!)

     I seriously doubt that aliens are a hoax.  Many of the people who make the
claims have no reason to lie.  They are perfectly sound and have no ambition
for media attention.  Furthermore, with all due respect, the common man does
not always have the imagination neccessary to concoct the story of an
abduction.
     How about the idea of a massive psychosis?  But so many people are
hallucinating the same thing.  One might argue that the media makes this
so--people hear about UFO abductions, then have them happen as hypnogogic
experiences.  But, abductions have occured throughout history--long before they
were widely reported.  The idea of a massive psychosis is as hard to swallow as
the idea of being taken aboard an alien ship and being studied.

     At this point in time I have only questions--no answers.  All I ask is
that people use logic and imagination both.  (Don't kill me for watching
_Cosmos_ and admiring Sagan's general outlook on life!)  There must be
something to these reports, but what it is, I have no idea.
     And one more thing.  If you see a bright light while you're driving down
that country road, and you and your grandmother are being abducted, and your
grandmother tells you that Jesus and his angels are comming out of the light
when you see numerous small humanoid shapes, tell her to get real; she's making
our species really look primitive, worshipping anything with nifty powers.

--Jon, .sigs were taken last night by Whitley Striber's friends, and haven't
       been returned yet.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14926 alt.paranormal:6772 sci.skeptic:41424
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (David Jones)
Subject: Uri Geller
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Nntp-Posting-Host: erra
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 20:55:26 GMT
Lines: 25

A Richard Temps writes:

  ...  As for Uri Geller as a person, I believe he met with failure  because
 of  his  ego  and lack of ability to relax under intense pressure.  More on
 that later.  I have read some literature surrounding this person (sorry, no
 references  today;  look up 'Uri Geller' or 'telekinesis' at your library),
 and I believe he had the abilities he cliamed to have had.  I also  believe
 that  elements  of the press were out to hang him, and through his own lack
 of foresight, they succeeded.  I personally think that there are a  handful
 of  people  out  there with a much better abilites than he, but they defin-
 itely have enough good sense to keep away from the media.

Failure?  He is a highly successful multi-millionaire living in Great  Bri-
tian.   Aside  from  his working with the FBI, CIA, moasad (and the Israeli
super secret s... m...), etc., he has used his abilities to find gas,  oil,
and  various  minerals  for multi-national corporations.  One of the things
that he is on retainer for, among other things, (about $10,000 year in some
cases),  for some people, is that if they are kidnapped, there is an agree-
ment that the kidnapee will send Geller thoughts.  Geller will then use his
abilities,  and  working  with the International Police (Interpol, or other
police-type organization) will locate and rescue his client.   For  obvious
reasons  who  those people may or may not be is kept as a highly classified
matter.  And yes, I have met and spoken with him.

-------------
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14927 alt.paranormal:6773 sci.skeptic:41426
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Frazier)
Subject: Re: Uri Geller
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: East Texas State University, Commerce, Texas
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 21:26:18 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Jones) writes:
>A Richard Temps writes:
>
>  ...  As for Uri Geller as a person, I believe he met with failure  because
> of  his  ego  and lack of ability to relax under intense pressure.  More on
> that later.  I have read some literature surrounding this person (sorry, no
> references  today;  look up 'Uri Geller' or 'telekinesis' at your library),
> and I believe he had the abilities he cliamed to have had.  I also  believe
> that  elements  of the press were out to hang him, and through his own lack
> of foresight, they succeeded.  I personally think that there are a  handful
> of  people  out  there with a much better abilites than he, but they defin-
> itely have enough good sense to keep away from the media.
>
>Failure?  He is a highly successful multi-millionaire living in Great  Bri-
>tian.   Aside  from  his working with the FBI, CIA, moasad (and the Israeli
>super secret s... m...), etc., he has used his abilities to find gas,  oil,
>and  various  minerals  for multi-national corporations.  One of the things
>that he is on retainer for, among other things, (about $10,000 year in some
>cases),  for some people, is that if they are kidnapped, there is an agree-
>ment that the kidnapee will send Geller thoughts.  Geller will then use his
>abilities,  and  working  with the International Police (Interpol, or other
>police-type organization) will locate and rescue his client.   For  obvious
>reasons  who  those people may or may not be is kept as a highly classified
>matter.  And yes, I have met and spoken with him.
>
>-------------

You also probably watched the show on Russia's psychics and believed that
to.  Anyone who believes in Geller needs to read James Randi's
(Amazing Randi) books on the subject of him and other psychics.

Jeff Frazier
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Mark's Wallet..
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News User)
Organization: UNLV
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 21:30:42 GMT
Lines: 13

^(More remote seeing claims)

^In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
^>(JW I have a friend who can do this sort of thing.)

^No you don't, because they still haven't located my wallet.


    Mark,
        Is it in your car? Under your driver's seat
between the seat cover and the seat... Just a guess....

            ^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14572 alt.alien.visitors:14929 alt.religion.kibology:7737
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Should Kibo grow up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: yalevm.ycc.yale.edu
Organization: Yale University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 17:34:44 EST
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Erik Sorgatz) writes:

>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
>>
>>I was absorbing a.r.k earlier today and my wife said 'what's kibology?' and
>>I told her and she said 'who's Kibo?' and I didn't tell her and then she
>>bit me and I told her and then she said 'well, he should grow up!'.  What
>>do you all think?
>>--
>>Jason Balicki | [e-mail]
>
> Isn't that a little like asking fish to live out of water?  I'd vote 'YES`
>but what's the point? Parry's got 4 or 5 'alt.xxx.kibo' newsgroups already
>and he still spews that stuff everywhere he goes; the rec.*, sci.*, etc...
>...I don't think it's funny but *somebody* seems to think it is!  Your wife
>is a wise person.
>
Hey, here's one for you. I'll grow up if Kibo does, heh heh.

Diana
"Bol'shaia beda! Ey-bogu,ne zaplachu ot etogo!"
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From: [e-mail] (case s)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 26 Mar 1993 22:54:04 GMT
Organization: SDSU Computing Services
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Message-ID: <1p01ic$[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucssun1.sdsu.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund) writes:
>>|> Let's see if I have this straight: you guess correctly 50% of the time and
>>|> conclude that you are "psychic." Is that right?
>>Unless all his guesses are on binary questions, that's actually more than one
>>might expect. So his guesses probably are binary... :-)
>Not necessarily.
>
>If 75% of people have brown eyes, for instance, ypou can guess right 75% of the
>time without being psychic, just by guessing "brown" every time.  If you
>guess a mixture of colors, but including a lot of browns, you will still be
>right more than 75% of the time, plus you get to have the occasional correct
>guess of blue or green eyes to break the monotony.
>
>Having anon-binary question with, say, 4 equally likely possibilities lowers
>the score below 50%, but traits like the brown eye one raise it again.

Yes, true.  That doesn't explain heights, weights, clothing, stuff like that,
but I shall ignore that for now.

Last night, I did another experiment.  I asked a person to write down five
numbers, from 1-3, and concentrate on them in turn.  I would then write down
five numbers, as he 'broadcasted' them in turn and I 'recieved' them.
After all five were done, we compared our notes.

My numbers were 3 2 2 3 2.  His were 3 2 2 3 1.  I got four out of five,
which I _believe_ to be improbable.

                    - Richard Temps

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14931 alt.paranormal:6776 sci.skeptic:41431
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Subject: (no subject given)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, academic Computer Center
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 17:11:53 CST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Lines: 9

What the hell does this have to do with a.a.v.?
Ethan Haslett
[e-mail]
Subject: Re: Uri Geller
References:  <[e-mail]>

What the HELL does this have to do with alt.alien.visitors?
Ethan Haslett
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:14932 alt.paranormal:6777 sci.skeptic:41433
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From: [e-mail] (case s)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 26 Mar 1993 23:14:43 GMT
Organization: SDSU Computing Services
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Message-ID: <1p02p3$[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <1ottcg$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucssun1.sdsu.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stuart Grant) writes:
>In article <1ottcg$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (case s) writes:
>
>[A number of personal anecdotes, purported to be examples of psychic ability]
>
>O.K. ! Now we have something to build on.  You have given some personal
>anecdotes of experiences that that have led you to believe you have
>psychic powers.  Obviously, most people in this group will poo-poo these
>anecdotes (with good reason, IMHO). How about a real test?  Would
>you be willing to perform a couple of tests?

Actually, yes I would.  But not here.  I would think I would be the most
successful at any such tests on _my_ territory, not here.  Recently, somebody
(I forgot who) asked me to 'sense' the middle maiden name of his mother
(or grandmother?).  I have received a 'reading' on this, and _I_ believe it
to be 'Joyce'.  Note that I have already given two attempts at this problem,
so this is my third try (and if I cant get it by the third time, I just stop
trying.  :))  I define 'my' territory as the neutral ground of the
Internet Relay Chat system, around ten o'clock PST, channel #wicca.

>
>If you are willing to take part in a public test of your claimed psychic
>powers, tell us the sort of things you can do, and all of us can
>try to design a test that can be performed right here on the net.
>

IRC is part of the net.  :)

>For example, can you predict the future? (On any or all things)
>Are you able to communicate with the dead?
>Can you read the minds of people far away?
>
For the first:  sometimes; not very well however.  On the second:  never
tried, never want to, really.  On the third:  it's what I'm training to do
at the moment.  Sometimes I have very good successes with it.

How about this:  You get ten letters, either A, B or C.  Meet me on IRC,
at some pre-scheduled time.  I would direct you to mentally focus on
each letter in your mind, and I will direct you to focus on the next one
as I pick them up.  Afterwards, I give my results to you, and you make
an honest straightforward tally of the results for all to see here on
USENET.  The worst that can happen to me is I get most of them wrong, and
my credibility here would be shot.  Which doesn't affect me anyways, because
I am just presenting personal anecdotes/opinions anyways!  Hahahaha... at
best, I get nine or ten correct, and I at least make a _FEW_ skeptics say,
Hmmmmmmmmmm.... and the rest of the skeptics would jump all over you and me
both.  ;)

                Tell me what you think.

                - Richard Temps


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From: [e-mail] (I am an android..)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A challenge...
Date: 26 Mar 1993 23:24:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sleepy.cc.utexas.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
]>        I challenge any alien being within ear or eye shot of
]>this newsgroup to find me and at least try to abduct me...
]>
]>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^BLONDIE
]
]What makes you think they would want to?

They threw John Winston back...


--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Patrick Chester   (aka: claypigeon)         [e-mail]|
|If the Earth is our Cradle, then why are we still here?               |
|Everything your side says is Truth. All else is Propaganda....        |
|I only speak for myself. If I *did* speak for UT, would anyone listen?|
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
Xref: icaen alt.folklore.urban:68957 alt.alien.visitors:14934
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From: [e-mail] (I am an android..)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aerospace UL
Date: 26 Mar 1993 23:29:15 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sleepy.cc.utexas.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth) writes:
]In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (I am an android..) writes:
]>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth) writes:
]>]ObUl- It was revealed recently that Dr. Werner von Braun had actually
]>]worked on a manned space shuttle program for Nazi Germany, but the
]>]prototpye was lost on re-entry during it's super-secret test flight.
]>]Apparently, the pilot blacked out, causing the shuttle to crash. It was
]>]learned later that this was due to the severe g's encountered during the
]>]high speed lightning-bolt S turns, which were performed to slow the shuttle
]  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
]>]during its landing approach.
]>
]>Uh.. yeah. Okaaaaaay.
]
]Sorry about that, I was trying to make a joke, but it seems to have backfired
](with smileys prohibited, that can happen).  Note the underlined part.
]A play on the 'S-turns' the shuttle does to slow its descent.

Boo. Hiss. Bad pun. BAD PUN!



--
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Patrick Chester   (aka: claypigeon)         [e-mail]|
|If the Earth is our Cradle, then why are we still here?               |
|Everything your side says is Truth. All else is Propaganda....        |
|I only speak for myself. If I *did* speak for UT, would anyone listen?|
\----------------------------------------------------------------------/
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From: [e-mail] (James Rice)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 26 Mar 93 16:59:27
Organization: Knowledge Systems Lab, Stanford University
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <1ottcg$[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <1p02p3$[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpp-ss10-1.stanford.edu
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 26 Mar 1993 23:14:43 GMT


I think that it's very encouraging that you'd be prepared to
participate in an experiment.  Contrary to what many people think,
many skeptics would be delighted if there was such a thing as psi,
it's just that we psi challenged types see no evidence.  We'd really
like to get some convincing evidence that these phenomena if they
exist.

My guess is that noone really minds when or where you perform your
experiment or over which medium you propose to publish your results.
All you need to do is find someone whom we mutually accept as being
unlikely to cheat who will do the concentrating for you at the
approved time.

In article <1p02p3$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (case s) writes:
   [.....]
   How about this:  You get ten letters, either A, B or C.  Meet me on IRC,
   at some pre-scheduled time.  I would direct you to mentally focus on
   each letter in your mind, and I will direct you to focus on the next one
   as I pick them up.  Afterwards, I give my results to you, and you make
   an honest straightforward tally of the results for all to see here on
   USENET.  The worst that can happen to me is I get most of them wrong, and
   my credibility here would be shot.  Which doesn't affect me anyways, because
   I am just presenting personal anecdotes/opinions anyways!  Hahahaha... at
   best, I get nine or ten correct, and I at least make a _FEW_ skeptics say,
   Hmmmmmmmmmm.... and the rest of the skeptics would jump all over you and me
   both.  ;)

Scientist types tend to be a little picky about experimental protocol
design, so perhaps you'll bear with us whilst we thrash out a few of
the details to our mutual satisfaction.  I think that you would be
just as keen to get a clear and statistically significant result
from this test.  You might even get a Nobel prize if you manage to
show your powers convincingly.

Let me propose the following slightly modified experiment, that I think
might give a clearer result.

You get to pick letters from the alphabet A...Z (case insensitive),
which gives you 26 choices.  A quick computation from the number of
particles in the universe (10e65, if I remember rightly) leads me to
believe that a sample of (ceiling (log (expt 10 65) 26)) = 46 would
mean that getting them all right by chance is negligibly probable.  I
propose to generate a series of 46 letters from the alphabet using a
random number generator to select the members of the sequence (some
nonseudo-random process like neutonemission might be better, but I
don't have access to such instruments.  I'd propose to use the
Park-Miller randomiser, it has, I believe, statistical properties good
enough for this experiment).  This step is important because humans
are known to pick numbers/letters in very non-random ways (poor
entropy for combinations of symbols).  We therefore want toeliminate
any experimental bias that might be introduced by the selection of the
target letter rather than by the psi effort.

I would then send these letters to the mutually agreed upon
concentrator, who would pledge not to reveal the list to anyone until
after the publication of the experimental results except by
concentrating at the approved time.  At the mutually approved time
(you'd have to agree this with the concentrator, your time is
incompatible with my lifestyle so I can't do it), the concentrator
would concentrate for 10 minutes on the series of letters.  You would
then type in your guesses and mail the results to IRC and me.  I'd
send out the result the next day.

Scoring rule: Only correct letters count (near misses score zero).
Sequence is important, so strings of correct letters shifted forwards
or backwards from their correct positions would also count as zero
(unless coincidentally some of them lined up correctly with other
letters).  The score awarded would be the number of correct letters.

Example:

Target:  QWERTYUIOP
Guess:   DWKJTNYUIO
Score:   0100100000 = 2

At this point, we have to try to decide what might constitute a good
result.  I guess I'll have to bow to those on s.s who are better at
statistics.  I guess that a result that was significant at 0.1% would
be unlikely enough that we'd want to do further experiments.  Note
that a statistically interesting result still doesn't mean that you
had psi powers, it means that the result is suggestive enough that
we'd have to take a close look at the experiment to see if there was
some hidden flaw.  We'd then probably try to come up with another
differently conceived experiment intended to observe the same
phenomenon by way of coroberation.

It sounds like you think your hit rate is good enough that you ought
to be able to get such a result without difficulty.  There are a bunch
of s.s readers who seem to have experience in critiquing the design of
these sorts of experiments.  The above might actually be fatally
flawed in some (to me) non-obvious way, so I'd be reluctant to go
ahead until we had a certain amount of unanimity wrt the experiment
design.


Rice.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1p01ic$[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 01:08:16 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 25

In <1p01ic$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (case s) writes:

>Yes, true.  That doesn't explain heights, weights, clothing, stuff like that,
>but I shall ignore that for now.

What range of values do you call a hit? Height within 1/2 inch? 3 inches?
Weight within 1/2 pound? 5 pounds?



>Last night, I did another experiment.  I asked a person to write down five
>numbers, from 1-3, and concentrate on them in turn.  I would then write down
>five numbers, as he 'broadcasted' them in turn and I 'recieved' them.
>After all five were done, we compared our notes.
>My numbers were 3 2 2 3 2.  His were 3 2 2 3 1.  I got four out of five,
>which I _believe_ to be improbable.

Not all that improbable. One chance in 81, assuming that the other chose
randomly. And in fact humans are very poor random number generators,
preferring some digits and sequences and avoiding others. Repeat the experiment
100 times and see how you do. Even better, have a third person or a machine
generate random sequences which your partner then concentrates on, rather
than having your partner pick their own sequences. This prevents the
experiment from becoming an excercise in implicit communication (you notice
patterns in your partner's choices, etc.)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:14573 alt.alien.visitors:14937 alt.religion.kibology:7743
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
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From: [e-mail] (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Should Kibo grow up?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: ITC/UVA Community Access UNIX/Internet Project
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 01:29:13 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
>>
>>I was absorbing a.r.k earlier today and my wife said 'what's kibology?' and
>>I told her and she said 'who's Kibo?' and I didn't tell her and then she
>>bit me and I told her and then she said 'well, he should grow up!'.  What
>>do you all think?
>
>She should anoint Kibo's head (see Psalm 45).

Which head :)

>All male Kibologists but Kibo
>should remain celibate.

Sure.... :)
--
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .

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From: [e-mail] (Noah Friedman)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Should Kibo grow up?
Date: 26 Mar 93 20:32:44
Organization: Free Software Foundation, 675 Mass Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 26 Mar 93 19:01:30 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki) writes:
|I was absorbing a.r.k earlier today and my wife said 'what's kibology?' and
|I told her and she said 'who's Kibo?' and I didn't tell her and then she
|bit me and I told her and then she said 'well, he should grow up!'.  What
|do you all think?

I think kibo is too tall already.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 27 Mar 1993 02:02:26 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <1oqnvu$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<1ote8g$[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1ote8g$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
=I do not promise cold hard facts, but if you want _my_
=evidence, just ask me and give me a fair chance to state my case.

I've already asked you for it several times.  So far, you've managed to avoid
providing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.paranet.XXXXXX ONLINE!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Clark Mills)
Date: 27 Mar 93 00:31:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Household UNIX, Auckland, New Zealand
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Lines: 24

[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
: Since nobody has mentioned it, THE NEW alt.paranet.XXXXXXX groups are now
: ONLINE!

I haven't noticed much traffic at all through any of these groups yet :-(
My stats:

    alt.paranet.ufo: 0-6
    alt.paranet.abduct: 0
    alt.paranet.science: 0
    alt.paranet.skeptic: 0
    alt.paranet.paranormal: 0

: Let history note that some real progress in this field may now be
: possible.

Unfortunately they are un-moderated so there is no real benifit over the
existing newsgroups!  I guess that's why they are a no-go-er.  (or are there
heaps of articles that my system is missing out on?)
--
Domain: [e-mail]  -----------------------------+-------------------+
Voice : 64-25-935002        Disclaimer: All errors are  | $ nice -20 work & |
Fax   : [phone]                    line niose!     | $ exec games      |
Snail : PO Box 47-195, Ponsonby, Auckland, New Zealand  +-------------------+
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: TV Show.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 18:11:14 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear TV Watchers: Last night they had a TV show about the pyschics
in Russia called Powers Of The Russian Psychics.  They get respect
over there.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Answer
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Dear Folks: Well I see I woke up a few of you. Glad to hear your
still alive.
John Winston.
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Subject: Answer
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Dear Folks: Kibo is the funniest guy to ever bite a hot dog. If the
world was filled with Kiboes what a wonderful world this would be.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: [unexplained] we can never explain the unexplained?
Date: 27 Mar 1993 03:07:43 GMT
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In article <1ottcg$[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (case s) writes:
=I unfortunately have not made any logged scripts of my 'volunteer sessions'
=on the places where I 'practice'.  Let me tell you exactly what I do.
=Typically, when I am feeling tuned-in (actually, relaxed but active/not
=sleepy), I either log onto LambdaMOO (tn lambda.parc.xerox.com 8888) or
=the Internet Relay Chat system (channel #wicca).  Actually, I do this all
=the time, but for right now let us assume I'm in the mood for a volunteer.
=What I mean by this is I ask people I have never seen before if I can
=be allowed to 'sense' various attributes of their physical descriptions.
=My accuracy widely ranges.  Once I got a 90%; that means that, without
=any previous knowledge of this person, just met him 10 minutes ago,
=I ascertained his exact numbers on height, weight, hair/eye color, and
=missed the color of his clothing.  All on the first try, i.e., there was
=no prompting or 'warm/cold/higher/lower' from him.  At another time I
=got absolutely nothing on a person; all of my answers were totally wrong.
=I average around 50% however.  This means, half of the information I
=get correct, and half of it wrong.

Is this just your feeling for your average accuracy, or do you actually keep
notes and tally your results from time to time?  If it's the former, then such
things as selective memory and wishful thinking could well be more of a factor
than your actual accuracy in that 50% figure.  Please note also that you have
not, in any meaningful way, confirmed your descriptions.  Even if the 50%
figure you quote is accurate, it does NOT mean that you got half the
information correct;  it means merely that the person with whom you were
chatting told you that you got 50% of the information correct.  These are two
entirely separate things.  What evidence do you have that the people with whom
you're chatting are responding accurately?  Absolutely none, as best I can
tell.

=One day, when I was first trying this stuff, a person that I will call
='Bill' came into the channel #wicca.  I promptly asked him to volunteer,
=and he (no doubt smiling) accepted.  I have various methods I use to try
=to 'get' this information; I am still working on the methods that work best
=for me.  This time, I chose automatic typing.  I typed in 'what is bills
=physical description' several times very quickly, with numerous typos.
=Then, letting my mind wander, and just let my fingers type in the rest.
=What came out was surprising:  'grey hair and brown eyes and a wierd
=distinctive lean-to at the tip of his nose'.  After letting my brain come
=back on-line, I immediately said 'Wow, that was sure wierd.'
=Bill did not respond immediately.  I asked a fellow psychic (someone a bit
=more advanced than I am) a quick question:  What are you picking up from
=Bill?  She responded: 'I'm picking up a lot of disbelief and that we're
=a lot of wackos and kooks.'.  It took several minutes before Bill
=responded.  He typed in, 'Grey eyes, brown hair, and a distinctive lean
=at the end of my nose'.

Hmm.  After Bill got your description, he was, according to this "more advanced
psychic" still thinking that you were "a lot of wackos and kooks"?  That
doesn't seem to say much for your "more advanced psychic"'s abilities, or for
yours.  What evidence do you have that the time it took Bill to respond wasn't
the result of his rolling on the floor laughing at just how far from accurate
your description actually was?

=Now, theoretically it's possible that the 15+ people I've done this on
=(with various success rates, as I've said before) were all leading me on,
=saying I got it right when I was actually wrong.  So, I have to admit, I
=am depending on people's honesty here.  However, I asked others to ascertain
=MY description.  Case in point, I asked a person I'll call 'AW' what I was
=wearing and my hair color.  He might have known my hair color from some
=previous exchange, but it is doubtful he could know what I was wearing
=(a big sweatshirt) based on that information.

Of course, if you frequently wear a sweatshirt, he could've learned of that in
a previous exchange.

=Furthermore, that I am actually doing it and that since
=MOST people are generally honest (even over a relatively anonymous service
=like IRC), the results are real.

What leads you to believe that in the case of something like this, most people
wouldn't be pulling your leg?

Why don't you try something that's closer, at least, to a REAL test, viz:
    Have the person at the other end flip a coin a few dozen times and each
    time, you guess whether it's heads or tails.  Keep a record.  Once
    you've made, say, a total of 257 guesses, post the results (total
    number of guesses, and total number of correct guesses).
That at least is something amenable to analysis, since we know the odds of a
guess being correct absent your alleged psychic abilities.


=OK, another example.  The other tuesday there's this Wicca-related class
=called Wicca101 on IRC.  Of course, me and my friends attended, but apparently
=none of the teachers (those IRC participants that have been deemed as having
=valuable skills/talents/knowledge).  The topic that night was Tarot, but
=the teacher was history.  So, to pass the time, I brought up the idea that
=we should play some number-guessing games.  As in, I would try to project
=a number, and everyone else would try to pick it up, send it out, and
=see if they were right.  I decided to be the first one to 'project'.
=The first number was a 7.  I began a 3-2-1 countdown as to when everyone
=should start trying to 'receive' my number.  I decided on 7, and actually
=started projecting on the count of 2.  Within seconds, four people had
=responded, and two were correct.  One of my friends there even said that
=she picked it up very loud and clearly, beginning on the count of 2 instead
=of 1.  This was accurate.  Later on, other people took turns, and I
=said let me try projecting a letter/color combination instead.  After all,
=it would be less subject to 'chance'.

In what sense would it be less subject to chance?

=The color would be based on the
=letter; the first letter of the name of the color would be the letter
=projected.  Well, I decided upon 'G' for Grey.  I stated that it was really
=a test of the letter, and not the color;

Then why not simply use a letter instead?

=good thing too, because while
=all the participants got the letter, none of them got 'Grey'.  Everyone
=got 'Green' instead.

Yup.  Standard practice among self-deluded "psychics":  Set up one particular
test, when you don't succeed, use a similar, but not identical criterion under
which you do seem to succeed.

=I believe all 5 of the participants got the letter
=correct, but none received the grey part.  I must hasten to say that others
=MAY have been just following the lead of the first person; although I
=sincerely doubt it, I must grant that as a possible source of error.  At
=no time did I give any indication as to what I was projecting before all
=answers were in, however.

And at no point did you use a sample size sufficient to tell you anything about
whether or not this was actually due to psychic abilities.  How many other
trials were there?  What were the results of the trials [if any] you're not
telling us about?  Could it be that this "psychic power" of yours is nothing
more than selective memory (since getting the success rate you state would seem
to be very unlikely, you're more likely to remember it than you are to remember
a more common result)?

Also, in neither the number question nor the color question did you properly
specify the space in which you were operating.  In both cases, your success
involved a selection of a particularly likely data point, so you may be
misleading yourself about the likelihood of success via chance.  For example,
if the people who guessed 7 did it because of some psychic ability, they could
equally well have done it if you'd chosen 1,326,340,582,347 or 2.718314; If the
guess about the color was correct due to a psychic ability, they'd have done
equally well if you'd picked, say, cyan.  But you picked a relatively low
number, and a fairly common color.  Why was that?  If you wanted to rule out
'chance' as you claim you did, you should've picked a number and a color that
weren't likely to be guessed by chance.

=Another example.  I was MOOing around one fine night, very late at night.
=I encountered a person, and we started chatting, and this person was
=interested in the phenomena of psychic powers.  He related to me some
=wierd experiences of his, that made him a bit frightened at the time.
=He presented a test to me:  One of us would project a # from 1 to 3;
=the test would be repeated three times.  We repeated the test twice, switching
=off between the positions of 'reciever' and 'projector'.  Now, he COULD
=have possibly been leading me on when I was the receiver saying numbers;
=but, when it was my turn and he gave me the exact numbers that I was
=projecting, then one can only assume two things.  A) he was getting these
=numbers through resources that psychics believe in, or B) he got a one in
=27 chance of striking the correct combination.  Now, we both got each others
=three numbers correct.  IF you grant that neither of us was leading the other
=on, than we can say either both of us were using paranormal abilities, or
=we managed to get lucky.  The second possibility was a 1 in 729 chance;
=the first possibility seemed quite a bit more probable, IMHO.

Then, of course, there's the third possibility:  That the two of you were
somehow giving each other cues as to which number you picked without realizing
you were doing so.

=Now, I have just one more thing to pass on to you for your mental
=digestion.  I mentioned my 'darkvision' before, but let me explain that
=a bit better.  Last year, I started my practice as a Buddhist practitioner.
=Sometimes, I had great success at the meditations, and afterward I would
=feel exceedingly calm and 'energized'.  Sometimes in this state I would
=close my eyes tightly and turn off the lights, and observe my surroundings.
=Most of the time, I could see the border between my door and my wall of my
=room, the color of the walls, very simple shapes and patterns.  Other times,
=after a _very_ good meditation, this ability would be much much clearer.
=I would be able to make out the color of my shoes, all the things in my
=room, everything.  Basically, it was a type of shadowy vision that varied
=in strength, but had nothing to do with my natural physical vision (that I
=am aware of).

Or perhaps it more to do with your ability to visualize your surroundings.  Of
course, that explanation is simply too mundane for you even to consider, I
suppose.

=Today, I keep habits so that every day I stay up to 3 AM,
=and go straight from an environment of bright flourescent lights to
=pitch darkness.  In such cases, I close my eyes and 'see' the obstacles
=surrounding me so that I can make my way to my bed and flop down, without
=kicking my belongings or stubbing my toe on the furniture.  I grant, blind
=people can do this too, but most rather dislike it when you change the
=furniture around on them.

That's because when you do so, they don't have much of a chance of noticing the
changes other than by bumping into the furniture.

=I do not base the images that I see beyond my
=eyelids on memory, however; I have gone to places I've never been to before
=and it worked just fine under those conditions.

Do you mean that you've walked blindfolded into someplace you've never been, or
that you walk into such a place, close your eyes, and are able to visualize it?
The two are very different things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Streetlamps..
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Stephanie Linton u) writes:
>There was some conversation in the alt.paranormal about streetlamps burning
>out.. this happens to me as I just about reach streetlamps... they go out..
>it has happened for a few years now... and it happens every day (not in the
>same spot - in different spots and different cities) but i can be assured
>that whenever i go out at night one will burn out before i come to it..
>
>Did someone say that meant something?
>
>steph
>[e-mail]
>
You know, similar things happened to me too.... except that when I go near
the street lamp, it does't just shut itself off.  It sort of frickers several
times before I get right underneath it, then it fades slowly (doesn't completly
shut itself off), and as I walk away, it goes back as if nothing happened.
This only occured several times, in different countries.  But experience is
always the same.

                        Agni
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Maldek. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 19:33:12 PST
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1>+%"$$$$$
%Subject: Maldek The Lost
Planet. Part 2
  This is a continuation of our information of the planet called Maldek that
was destroyed and became the Asteroid Belt. Here we go;.....It came about,
after this had  exsisted for many hundreds of years, that the people of
Maldek were exposed to the radiation of fissionable products, which their
government chanced to be exploring the possiblities of. Here a great
disaster took place.  A missile containing CAL-nutronite, their most
terrifying force yet developed, was somehow tampered with and it exploded
over the suburban areas of Karna.  The radiations which were loosed into the
atmosphere of Maldek seared the minds of all the people everywhere upon its
surface. A form of madness (radiation induced) infected all of these people.

  Karna accused Vadur of having intentionally caused this accident.  The
people, inflamed as they already were, declared that a retribution should be
extracted from the Vadurian continent.  I need not say of what followed.
Envy, greed and hatred, fanned by the slow-falling dust, laden with this
radiation, brought about the loss of all reason in these people.  A war of
nuclear weapons grew to great proportions.

  We of the Confederation, bound by the laws of our unity (The Galactic Pax)
could not intervene in this situation.  Although many delegations of our
people went and pleaded with both powers on Maldek, we could not impress
upon them the foolishness of what they were pursuing.  Finally, after
repeated warnings were not heeded, we withdrew and stationed one of our
remotely controlled observer craft, a Chronomonitor, near the planet to
record and to broadcast the events of this planet's dying moments.  I now
return you to the monitor's broadcast for a few moments.

"Oh Maldek, the light of your existence is glowing brightly on our screens.
Already that which you were is fading.  A missile containing the living
element hydrogen is on its eventful flight through your atmosphere.  We can
not longer stay and plead for your exsistence.  The moment has
arrived!---Adonai, Oh Maldek!---It is finished, Oh Radiant One!"

  My brothers, I, Mon-Ka, say this to you of earth.  The first three letters
of the word, "CAL-nutronite," the power which cause the evental destruction
of Maldek, represents the elements cadmium, aluminum and lithium.  If I
mention that as this moment (1956) possibilities of uniting these elements
in a nuclear device, need I say more?

  It is for you, people of earth, to decide which you will have --a repetition
of that fate which overcame Maldek; or a fate predicted upon a great destiny
 of cooperation and service, of Love and "Light," of interstellar
co-existence.

  I say this to you, oh people of earth. The force fields of the planet you
call Saturn, which you describe as rings and the asteroid belt contain the
evidence which once existed as a planet similar to your own.  The date of
this event can be determined by your own Holy Works. It has been stated in
these works "that it caused a great light in the heavens and that the rivers
ran red as if from blood"; this, caused by the falling dust of Maldek as it
settled not only in your own atmosphere, but in that of my planet Masar.

  I ask you, who hear my words, to consider well that which we have stated.
And now, my bbrothers, I must leave. Think well of which future you and your
people desire.  The couses and the events will be caused more by your own
doing than by any intervention which we might be allowed to bring about.
Let us see how you, people of earth, decide.

  I hope to have the opportunity to speak with you again. I will leave you
now. Adonai, my brothers. I am called Mon-Ka.  The name, for you
information, can be spelled Mon-Ka. Vasu, barragus.
The End.
JW I have been told that some of the people living on Earth now were living on
Maldek when it blew up.
Source of Information: Star Wards, Welcome Home Earthman, by Richard Miller,
Page 11.
John Winston.
adiation of fissionable products, which their government chanced to be
exploring the possib%wZ

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0Roman 10cpi Karna accused Vadur of having intentionally caused this
accident.  The people, inflamed as they already were